What's the difference?

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

From Strong drink I'm sure he did. But otherwise if not it was because of lack of options, not because He was trying to drink with the drunkard's.

Jesus turned water into wine. Could he not turn wine into water?

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by berkeley

Jesus turned water into wine. Could he not turn wine into water?

He never did the miraculous to make His way easier, only to help others deliver them and set them free.

[berkeley]

ROFLOL

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

He never did the miraculous to make His way easier, only to help others deliver them and set them free.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I've been to prison you ever seen someone make hooch(wine)? It takes some time to ferment, not long like 2 to 3 days, but what Jesus made was fresh off the press. New wine could be what you didn't let age, which would be 2 or 3 days. But I was referring to the wine was new, not calling it new wine which we can tell in the scripture is referring to Strong Drink.

So, Jesus made new wine which was not alcoholic, but the mockers thought the apostles were drunk on new wine which was 2 or 3 days old? So then wine is alcoholic or not based on what you want it to be, instead of on what it is? Jesus didn't make "new wine fresh off the press". There was no press. There was simply Holy Ghost power. It was wine, and it was considered by the host of the wedding as "the best".

The Scriptures say that wine was given by God to man along with bread and oil. Nobody drank "non alcoholic wine" in the bible, unless you count vinegar. The tetotaler is certainly within their rights to abstain from all wine. But to declare that someone else is somehow not right with God just because they drank wine is wholly unscriptural.

Jesus was accused of being a winebibber. This would have been an impossible and ridiculous accusation that would have held no water with anyone if Jesus and His disciples were dedicated to zero tolerance and total abstinence, like John the Baptist was. He was accused of being a winebibber by Pharisees, who certainly had no prohibition against drinking wine in moderation. Therefore, it is inescapable that Jesus and His disciples did in fact drink wine in moderation, as everyone else in Palestine did except for Nazarites.

I am not trying to encourage anyone to drink wine. But I am trying to discourage people from making claims that simply cannot be supported by Scripture and which contradict Scripture. THAT is more dangerous than drinking a glass of Cabernet with your dinner. Far more dangerous.

[berkeley]

Esaias, thank you.

[Apostolic1ness]

I consider myself a king and priest unto God per Rev. 1 4-6 speaking about those that are washed in the blood of Jesus. I also read in Proverbs 31:4 it is not for kings to drink wine nor for princes strong drink. I am definitely a prince. I am also a preacher of the gospel and some would say Elder, Bishop, Preacher are the same office and Paul in Titus 1:7 said a bishop is not given to wine. Looks like wine is out of the question for me. How many hermeneutical laws did I just break?

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

I consider myself a king and priest unto God per Rev. 1 4-6 speaking about those that are washed in the blood of Jesus. I also read in Proverbs 31:4 it is not for kings to drink wine nor for princes strong drink. I am definitely a prince. I am also a preacher of the gospel and some would say Elder, Bishop, Preacher are the same office and Paul in Titus 1:7 said a bishop is not given to wine. Looks like wine is out of the question for me. How many hermeneutical laws did I just break?

1ness

In all sincerity I honor your choices to not drink. As do the scripures, I think drunkeness is to be avoided as it leads easily to sin. I also think that excess in all things is harmful.

However,

For a person that has proven at 54 years old to not be suseptable to overuse, or addiction. The use of a drink to enjoy more fully dinner and evening are not only allowed but condoned, or even suggested, by scriptures quoted here by Berkley and others.

I really would like to beleive that you are just a person - with justifiable pride, in his chosen understanding of living for God. But, when you say things like drink up and die, it comes off more like, I am glad oh Lord that I am not like this publican.

I really dont think that is your intention. If however that is actually what you are saying, oh well. You are entitled to your opinion. The good Lord, has a sense of humor I think, laughter doith good like a medicine. Perhaps he will put my mansion on the same block as yours?

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

1ness

In all sincerity I honor your choices to not drink. As do the scripures, I think drunkeness is to be avoided as it leads easily to sin. I also think that excess in all things is harmful.

However,

For a person that has proven at 54 years old to not be suseptable to overuse, or addiction. The use of a drink to enjoy more fully dinner and evening are not only allowed but condoned, or even suggested, by scriptures quoted here by Berkley and others.

I really would like to beleive that you are just a person - with justifiable pride, in his chosen understanding of living for God. But, when you say things like drink up and die, it comes off more like, I am glad oh Lord that I am not like this publican.

I really dont think that is your intention. If however that is actually what you are saying, oh well. You are entitled to your opinion. The good Lord, has a sense of humor I think, laughter doith good like a medicine. Perhaps he will put my mansion on the same block as yours?

i cant find the text where I said what you claim in bold. but dont through your wine bottles on my property please.

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

i cant find the text where I said what you claim in bold. but dont through your wine bottles on my property please.

If there are bottles there, I promise I wont do that.
I have slightly misquoted you, correct quote is in response to Aquila on bottom of page 5 - my apologies

[Aquila]

Let's reason together as brethren and search the Scriptures like the Bereans.

The Bible is about principles. Wine isn't condemned, drunkenness is. Sex isn't condemned, sexual immorality is. Food isn't condemned, gluttony is. And of course, this list of examples can go on and on. Throughout Scripture we see wine, sex, and food provided as blessings for man's enjoyment. However, we also see condemnation and warning regarding the abuse of these blessings.

As it relates to alcohol, we're all in agreement that "drunkenness" is sin.

Perhaps we should ask, "How is drunkenness defined biblically?"

The Holman Bible Dictionary presents a rather sound definition of drunkenness:

Bible Dictionaries

Holman Bible Dictionary
Drunkenness

A state of dizziness, headaches, and vomiting resulting from drinking alcoholic beverages. From Genesis 9:21 on, the Bible describes the shameful state of the drunken person and the shameful actions resulting from the state. Too much partying led to drunkenness and failure of communication between husband and wife ( 1 Samuel 25:36 ). It left a person defenseless against enemies (1 Kings 16:9-10 ; 1 Kings 20:16 ). They sang loud songs ridiculing other people (Psalm 69:12 ) and could not walk straight (Job 12:25 ; Psalm 107:27 ). They vomited (Jeremiah 25:27 ) and were in a daze, unaware of events around them (Joel 1:5 ). They ruined their future (Proverbs 23:20-21 ). They could not protect themselves against unnecessary injuries such as avoiding a thornbush (Proverbs 26:9 ). Drunken leaders ruin a nation (Isaiah 28:1-9 ). Being drunk became a figure of speech for having to drink the disaster God was sending (Isaiah 49:26 ; Isaiah 51:21-22 ; Jeremiah 25:27-29 ; Ezekiel 39:17-20 .

The Jewish leaders tried to discredit Jesus, saying He was a drunkard (Matthew 11:19 ). Jesus warned that the cares of life may lead to anxiety and drunkenness (Luke 21:34 ). Paul repeatedly warned against the dangers of drunkenness (Romans 13:13 ; 1 Corinthians 5:11 ; Galatians 5:21 ; 1 Thessalonians 5:7 ). Timothy 1 Thessalonians 3:3 and Titus 1:7 warn church leaders they must not be drunkards. Drunkenness is a pagan custom, not a Christian one ( 1 Peter 4:3 ). Drunkards are among these who will not “inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:10 ).
https://www.studylight.org/dictionar...unkenness.html

Based on this, the Bible describes drunkenness as being associated with the following:

- Dizziness/Inability to stand ("reeling to and fro")
- Vomiting
- Impaired ability to communicate
- Being unable to adequately defend one's self
- Loud, uncontrolled, boisterous, and crude behavior
- Inability to walk straight
- Limited awareness of one's surroundings
- Inability to avoid injury (like falling down steps or into a thorn bush)
- Revelries and ungoverned sexual desire
- Headaches (hangover)

The above describe what drunkenness is. If Timothy, who mixed wine with water, wasn't showing any of the above symptoms, he obviously wasn't drunken. If a brother or sister goes out to eat and orders a beer, glass of wine, or other alcoholic beverage, and they are not showing the above indicators, they are not committing the sin of drunkenness.

Why is drunkenness a sin? Because it impairs judgment, inhibits self-control, and leaves one wide open to sin.

Personally, I enjoy opening a bottle of wine on the holidays, especially when I'm cooking. I'll pour a glass for myself, Christina, and/or any guests who wish to have one. As I cook, I'll sip the wine. It makes the experience enjoyable, people relax, laugh, and are filled with joy. I like to eat while I cook too. A nice cheese to compliment the wine is always nice. It enhances not only flavor, but also the pleasure of eating. It also helps with digestion, leaving one feeling very pleasant after having food and wine. No one is staggering about, slurring words, becoming crude, forgetting where they are, falling down steps, or trying to seduce anyone. And after a nice wine, and a full meal, people sleep like a baby. And no, they don't wake up with a hangover.

What matters is one's state of being. If you suddenly feel dizzy, simply stop drinking whatever it is that you're drinking. Have a soda or something non-alcoholic. You don't have to guzzle it all down at once. In a short time, your body will process the wine, and you'll feel more stable. Then you can return to the glass and finish it more slowly and truly enjoy it. Wine tasting can be a wonderful experience. One can taste chocolates, fruit, floral flavors, and earthy and/or metallic flavors, and even various flavors of ice cream. Sometimes a bottle of wine is like a treat to dazzle the senses. All you need is the right glass and the right tasting technique. It's not about getting drunk, just getting buzzed, or getting one's self sloshed. It's about celebrating life, happiness, joy, family, love, and all God's blessings. I'm truly saddened by how so many have abused this blessing to the point that their own conscience is so marred that they cannot even conceive of the difference between drunkenness and the blessing of wine.

I'm also a bit amazed at what some people think drinking is like. Based on how some address the issue, it becomes obvious that either they've never really drank alcohol... or they were totally ungoverned and thoughtless as they drank, guzzling down their alcohol like candy. You can't do that. You need to know and understand what it is that you're partaking in and understand how God expects you to partake should you choose to partake. It's like taking a gun to the range. You don't just flip it around recklessly pointing at anything an anyone. There is a protocol. Use the safety, wear goggles, keep the gun pointed down range, etc. Guns can be dangerous. Alcohol can be too. You have to know what you're doing or be able to control what you're doing. If one cannot manage to control themselves, then I'm fully supportive of them abstaining from alcohol.