Will this bring Obama down?

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Light

Please tell me what lies. The democrat party keeps to it's platform.

Here's an interesting take on things.

Democratic Lies, Republican Lies

By Crispin Sartwell


American statecraft relies on two kinds of lies. We might call these Democratic lies and Republican lies.

The Republican lie, as befits the Grand Old Party, is the wholesome old-fashioned lie: the atmosphere of secrecy and disinformation dished out for traditional purposes: manipulating people into acquiescing in the policies designed by the politicians and their corporate partners. Couched in a burlesque rhetoric of patriotism and freedom, the Republican lie nevertheless is relatively direct and even in some cases obvious: it's the covert ops lie, the plumbers operating out of a basement room, the secret arms-for-hostages deal, the WMD lie. The question on Iraq isn't primarily whether there was a false piece of intelligence or two. The question is whether Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell perpetrated a disinformation campaign concerning Saddam's nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons programs, and his connections to al-Qaeda in order to manipulate us into war. I believe so, and they have set us to killing Iraqis and Iraqis to killing us..

The Democratic lie, on the other hand, is the up-to-the minute postmodern or post-human lie: conviction by focus group. Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, and Al Gore, for example, are people who live beyond all belief; they are bundles of ambition with no internal identity holding them together: pure politics. Republicans lie. But Democrats *are* lies: there's nothing there at all.

Of course, both varieties of lie cross party lines. Consider Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara and the Gulf of Tonkin incident - and then the entire cloud of jive that surrounded their conduct of the Vietnam war. Or consider Clinton's straight-out mis-statements about Lewinsky or the tone of self-exculpatory evasion that pervades Hillary's memoir.

The Republican-style lie yields disastrous policy and implicates us in its application.The Democratic lie, while it does not necessarily create that kind of havoc (in part because it always agrees with whatever you think), is even more disgusting as a quality of the people who perpetrate it: it is a global, complete failure of moral personality, a kind of refutation of one's very existence.

Both, however, are incompatible with democracy. Barry Goldwater, in a sentence that stands as his testament as a public man, said that "without truth there cannot be freedom or justice, wisdom or tolerance, courage or compassion." The lie is always an attempt to reduce people's freedom or agency, to give them a delusory context of choice. If it succeeds, people can do bad things without understanding what they're doing. Their virtues, if any, cannot be expressed. The American people might even be good; deceived, we may commit acts of that would befit the greedy, power-hungry, and callous. That is exactly what we are doing.

Goldwater himself was driven to apoplexy both by the lies that took us to Vietnam and started our children killing their children, and by the Watergate scandal with its rumor mill concerning Democratic candidates and systematic concealment of Nixon's real personality. Congressional Republicans selected Goldwater to tell Nixon it was time to resign; they knew he'd give Nixon the unvarnished truth.

And people cannot really participate in a democracy when their leaders are completely concealed under layers of mindless, gutless rhetoric. Even as Clinton and Gore presided over an era of peace and prosperity, more and more people stopped participating. It became pointless or even impossible to care about people without conviction or reality.

But though I'm obviously pretty cynical, I don't believe that it's impossible that an American politician could resolve to speak the truth and live it. I have a certain respect for John McCain (who occupies Goldwater's senate seat) and perhaps for Howard Dean as well. But we had better stay focused on the fact that truthfulness is the necessary condition of democracy and the cardinal virtue of public persons. We are being made into vicious people, if you'll excuse me for saying so, by a government of lies.


___

Crispin Sartwell's book "Extreme Virtue: Leadership and Truth in Five Great American Lives" will be published by the State University of New York Press this Fall.

[tstew]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Ok, we get it, you see all the flaws in the Republicans, but can't seem to bring yourself to do the same with the Democrats. It gets so tiring when all someone does is point and say 'but see, there doing bad things too'......Mote and beam comes to mind. The Republicans and Democrats seem to have lost the whole idea and purpose for Government being of the people, by the people , and for the people. Time to clean House.....and Senate of all members who say one thing but do another and those who hate the high ideals this Country where founded upon.

DWW, just to be clear. I am not a Dem. I do see the flaws in our entire political process and our politicians from both parties. I am just as vocal (and have been here) about blind partisan support on the other side as well (like in the Black community). Playing both sides against the middle has become a strategy that politicians seem to have mastered. It's frustrating for me to watch people not be objective because they have to defend and be loyal to "their politicans".

If only politicians of the parties felt the same obligation to go to bat for their constituents...

There are so many things going on that are not in the best interest of America and are immoral and contrary to Christian beliefs, that I don't believe either party is guilty of being a mote. As far as I can tell we are dealing with beams either way. One party just says things to make some feel better about it.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by tstew

DWW, just to be clear. I am not a Dem. I do see the flaws in our entire political process and our politicians from both parties. I am just as vocal (and have been here) about blind partisan support on the other side as well (like in the Black community). Playing both sides against the middle has become a strategy that politicians seem to have mastered. It's frustrating for me to watch people not be objective because they have to defend and be loyal to "their politicans".

If only politicians of the parties felt the same obligation to go to bat for their constituents...

There are so many things going on that are not in the best interest of America and are immoral and contrary to Christian beliefs, that I don't believe either party is guilty of being a mote. As far as I can tell we are dealing with beams either way. One party just says things to make some feel better about it.

I'm pretty sure you and I agree, at least in this thread.......

As to the bolded above:Actually both parties do.

We need to vote out all liars!!!!!! If you ask for my vote and tell me you are going to this or that, then you better do your best to get it done. I'm not naive enough to believe that everything "promised" is actually possible. But do not lie to me and expect me not to do what I can to see you voted out.

Enough is enough. I will vote for Dem, Rep, or whoever has good character and will not lie to me.

[RevDWW]

Did anyone attend a "Tea Party" over the weekend?

[Light]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Did anyone attend a "Tea Party" over the weekend?

Yes the church had a picnic Saturday and we did have Tea.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Esther

I am not convinced that snopes is not bought off either.

Sorry, no recant. I did not write it and I am NOT convinced it isn't true.

Snopes is the poor mans version of Grocery checkout national enquiror.

On line super market tabloids.

[coadie]

Obama has no Law License

Obama relinquished his Illinois law license in early 2007. Why would
Obama give up something that provided his primary source of income
and something he spent so much time and energy obtaining? Andy Martin
filed a complaint in IL on March 13, 2007 stating that Obama had lied
on his IL bar application. Obama had 17 outstanding traffic violations
that he had failed to take care of.

These tickets were given by cops that act stupidly as he tells America. These tickets are placed on cars by drivers that park stupidly. These tickets were from Cambridge cops

Mr. Martin discovered that Obama
would not be prosecuted because he no longer had his law license. I contacted Andy Martin and this was his response:

“Nothing. Obama had already resigned as a lawyer and so they had no jurisdiction over him.”
“Not if they have lost jurisdiction over the individual. They can’t punish someone who has resigned, which is why so many corrupt lawyers in Illinois resign before they are disbarred.“

Obama ties to Crime and Corruption

Obama had many close ties to crime and corruption in Chicago and Illinois.
Tony Rezko and Obama, close associates for many years, are at the center
of investigations and prosecutions by federal prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald.
Tony Rezko has been tried and convicted of multiple counts of corruption
and is awaiting sentencing. he is also talking. Stuart Levine, the star
witness at the Rezko, has been convicted. Dr. Robert Weinstein has been
indicted and is awaiting trial. Rod Blagojecvich, the governor of Illinois,
was endorsed by Obama and will probably be indicted and convicted.
Obama has many ties to these corruption players and his name was mentioned regularly during the Rezko trial. Will Obama be indicted next?

The other component of "losing" his bar number is he lied about previous drug use and previous citizenship records.

[Sam]

He black.

He untouchable.

[coadie]

http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m...cert_corvo.jpg

In June of last year there was a birth Cert from Hawaaii for obama posted. It showed place of birth was Antartica. The time stamp for the Hawaai item on daily Kos which the one that was transfferred to fight the smears Obama site was 2 minutes later and it of course had the 50th of our 57 states as a place of birth.

I posted a blank so any one can make their own forgery. It is hard to find an old typewriter from 1961 with Ariel letters.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Sam

He black.

He untouchable.

Not according the the forged birth cert. He is "african". As are my German cousins born in Morroco.

States have many categories on these certificates for Race and African is not one of them.