I would be the first to agree with you on these points. In many posts I have pointed out that more Muslim blood than any other has been shed by extremist Muslims and in fact have expressed intolarance for this extremism. I also speak against intolarance of Islam as well. Implication that the people in democratic Muslim countries are "enslaved by islam" is preposterous especially as I have been there to see for myself. Many people choose Islam as a way of life. Even in the US where they can choose any life they want. Many countries have Muslims that are just that, Muslims. Lumping them all together is a form of extremism in itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
I'm not "bashing" Muslim believers either. They have my sincerest and deepest sympathies - the vast majority of them any way...
It is a demonstratable fact: the Western world and even Israel have treated the Muslim people far better than Islam and their fellow Muslims have treated them.
Add to that, the rather generous and magnaminous treatment Muslims have recieved from the Hindu state of India and the Indian people in general. There have been horrible reprisal killings over the years, but given the extent of the genocide practiced historically by Muslims in South Asia, the Indians have been generous indeed.
Islam needs to look at itself. Why do they kill for cartoons? Why do they savagely murder young women who have already been victimized by rape? Why are all of the world's armed conflicts being fought around the periphery of an ever expansionist dar-Islam?
What does Islam have to offer the world besides more bloodshed? Walks_in_islam - it's your turn to respond...
I would be the first to agree with you on these points. In many posts I have pointed out that more Muslim blood than any other has been shed by extremist Muslims and in fact have expressed intolarance for this extremism. I also speak against intolarance of Islam as well. Implication that the people in democratic Muslim countries are "enslaved by islam" is preposterous especially as I have been there to see for myself. Many people choose Islam as a way of life. Even in the US where they can choose any life they want. Many countries have Muslims that are just that, Muslims. Lumping them all together is a form of extremism in itself.
In what contry that is majority muslim in belief is a person free to be openly non-muslim in faith?
What Islamic Majority nation does not have Sharia Law?
These are honest questions. I dont know of any but that doesnt mean I believe there are none. I certainly would love to know.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
You are asking a fair question. Indonesia, who has the same population as the US, also has the highest Muslim population in the world (aka more Muslims than any other country). The country is predominantly Muslim and their legal systems are based on Sharia law (as spelled out, NOT the oppressive little extras that have been added over the years) There are all sorts of churches of all sorts of faiths on the city streets of Jakarta and other cities there. My own wife was raised in a Muslim family in Jakarta yet went to Catholic grade school and Protestant middle/high school (yes the education in the private schools are better, lol). As did our President in Jakarta, in spite of the rumors that HIS school in Jakarta was some kind of militant training center or some such. Indonesia is similar to the US in that they fought the Dutch for independence. They are a very young democracy but when election day comes boy do they show up to cast their votes. Their legal system is chosen and they choose to base their laws on Sharia principles.
Sharia law is pretty simple. Some givenments add all kinds of stuff to it and make it opressive. The Mideast is a mix. Egypt, Lebanon, UAE, and Bahrain legal systems have Sharia basis yet are tolerant of other faiths. KSA and others are not. KSA is especially bad about oppression of women. They forget (and believe me when I say I remind Saudis of this) that Mohammed's wife was a businesswoman who travelled and did business all over the middle east. They hate that reminder (laughing) because Islam specifically teaches that a wife's property and business is hers and only hers and that they have the right to manage their own business. Preventing such is against the Quran AND the teachings of Mohammed (they hate to hear that but never contend that is incorrect either).
Sharia law, as spelled out, is not oppressive and was never intended to be opressive. Certainly throughout time oppressive legal systems are by no means limited to those who misuse Sharia law either. It boils down to this as what I have observed in the world: Bad leaders form bad governments who create opressive conditions for the people who then have to live under their control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
In what contry that is majority muslim in belief is a person free to be openly non-muslim in faith?
What Islamic Majority nation does not have Sharia Law?
These are honest questions. I dont know of any but that doesnt mean I believe there are none. I certainly would love to know.
I also forgot Turkey, who has been a member of NATO for many years. Their population is 98 MM, ~95% of whom are Muslim. Their legal system is based on Sharia law as well. Turkey recognizes Greek-Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic religions in addition to Islam. I forgot Turkey because although Turkey is primarily Muslim, they never seem to make the news so we tend to forget them.
I would be the first to agree with you on these points. In many posts I have pointed out that more Muslim blood than any other has been shed by extremist Muslims and in fact have expressed intolarance for this extremism. I also speak against intolarance of Islam as well. Implication that the people in democratic Muslim countries are "enslaved by islam" is preposterous especially as I have been there to see for myself. Many people choose Islam as a way of life. Even in the US where they can choose any life they want. Many countries have Muslims that are just that, Muslims. Lumping them all together is a form of extremism in itself.
Very few people are just choosing Islam in the US. Most of them emigrated here from Islamic nations.
But even in a place like Turkey, it is dangerous to be a Christian. Not necessarily because of the government but because if the ingrained hatred and intolerance of many Muslims towards Christians.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
You are asking a fair question. Indonesia, who has the same population as the US, also has the highest Muslim population in the world (aka more Muslims than any other country). The country is predominantly Muslim and their legal systems are based on Sharia law (as spelled out, NOT the oppressive little extras that have been added over the years) There are all sorts of churches of all sorts of faiths on the city streets of Jakarta and other cities there. My own wife was raised in a Muslim family in Jakarta yet went to Catholic grade school and Protestant middle/high school (yes the education in the private schools are better, lol). As did our President in Jakarta, in spite of the rumors that HIS school in Jakarta was some kind of militant training center or some such. Indonesia is similar to the US in that they fought the Dutch for independence. They are a very young democracy but when election day comes boy do they show up to cast their votes. Their legal system is chosen and they choose to base their laws on Sharia principles.
Democracy there didn't help three catholic school girls from being beheaded. In all these nations with Sharia law, as tame as you might think it is Christians are still second class citizens who are out numbered and have little sympathy in the goverment who are supposed to protect them
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
I also forgot Turkey, who has been a member of NATO for many years. Their population is 98 MM, ~95% of whom are Muslim. Their legal system is based on Sharia law as well. Turkey recognizes Greek-Orthodox, Protestant, and Catholic religions in addition to Islam. I forgot Turkey because although Turkey is primarily Muslim, they never seem to make the news so we tend to forget them.
Christians are second class citizens there. Just because they "recognize" these other faiths does not prevent those practitioners of those faiths from being treated as second class citizens or worse. Not too long ago a triple murder made the news. Three Christians killed for their faith by Muslims who hated Christianity.
VOM says this about Turkey
Despite the government reforms to facilitate joining the European Union, there is no indication of increasing religious freedom. While the Turkish constitution includes freedom of religion, worship services are only permitted in "buildings created for this purpose," and officials have restricted the construction of buildings for minority religions. The few who dare to openly profess Christ face harassment, threats, and imprisonment. In June 2008, Turkish pastor Orhan Picaklar was falsely accused of insulting the prophet Mohammed and the police, and performing a marriage ceremony in the church (which is forbidden by law). Pastor Picaklar denied the charges.
While evangelism is not specifically forbidden, many prosecutors and police view it with suspicion and arrest those who do with charges of disturbing the peace, "insulting Islam," or conducting unauthorized educational courses. Foreigners in Turkey may be deported. Local officials have caused difficulties for Christians attempting to change their r
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Democracy in America didn't help the 16,000 victims of murder last year either did it? Or the 90,000 rape victims. Or 263,000 victims of robbery/assault. There is crime everywhere. BUT....the highest prison population per capita certainly is not in a Muslim country is it? Sad as it is, a Christian was safer in Iraq in 2006 than in New Orleans in 2006. Look it up. Violent deaths per capita. There are a whole list of US cities that ranked lower in safety than wartime Iraq and you look overseas and talk of "second class citizens" and safety.
Get this: I and my family are safer as an American in Saudi Arabia than I was in Houston. That is a FACT and I am on the ground here. Many of us are. Now spend some time scratching your heads and justify that one away.
US christians aparantly have little sympathy in the government that is supposed to protect them as well. BTW dont you have an assignment you are supposed to be working on in the Islam vs. Christianity board Prax?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Democracy there didn't help three catholic school girls from being beheaded. In all these nations with Sharia law, as tame as you might think it is Christians are still second class citizens who are out numbered and have little sympathy in the goverment who are supposed to protect them
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