Grace Verse Legalism

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Galatians isn't the only book where we are told as Christians/Christ followers to not take back the yoke of the law with its regulations and rules because it makes the grace of God to no effect. This is also contained in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and today I read in Colossians Chapter 2:13: When you who were dead in your sins and in the circumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having cancelled the written code, with its regulatians, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; He took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authoritities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabboth day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported, and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules; Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, butt they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

I would like to discuss this issue without name calling, judgments about my character or anyone else's. Let's look together at the word of God. It is too easy when one has no answer to throw stones and someone you consider lesser than yourself. We are all levelled at the foot of the cross.

In God's grip,
Rhoni

The point in Paul's Letters is often missed by both sides. Paul is not saying "don't do works". He is saying those that say they are justified by the works of the law are fallen from grace. This does not mean you can't keep the law, but it certainly means you don't HAVE to keep the law. However one has to define works. Works is often defined in scriptures as those ordinances under the law. We are told to obey the gospel, but not the law of Moses.

The Gospel message goes behind "Jesus died and rose again", That is a simple gospel statement, but clearly the Apostles elaborated on that.

Doing things or abstaining from things...if those are to be considered works are still things we MUST do AS Christians...not things we MUST do in order to become Christians.

Maintaining salvation? If one is to maintain salvation they are to maintain healthy faith, not a list of dos and don'ts. The dos and don'ts are really more of an indicator of a healthy faith. Yes if you lied you sinned. Not lying is not what saves you..or not sinning is not what saves you. Jesus saves us, by faith IN Jesus. Not sinning can't save you, but sinning willfully without repentance can reverse that, because you are willfully grieving the Spirit of God.

A Person who is walking by faith is grieved with sin and repents. A person who is not saved or on his way to not being saved, does not care anymore and will continue to sin without any thought of repentence

[LUKE2447]

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.[/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more! The term liberty also is usually a word used without understanding. As liberty is the ability to sin without it being counted against you much in the same way as grace is used. Paul always contrasted Grace with sin and notice "sin" was still sin whether Grace or no grace! hmmm Shall we continue in "sin" that Grace may abound? hmmm How can a person still sin if "one is not under law"?
As usual people don't understand the terms and make Paul contrary to the rest of the Word of God.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

Couldn't agree more! The term liberty also is usually a word used without understanding. As liberty is the ability to sin without it being counted against you much in the same way as grace is used. Paul always contrasted Grace with sin and notice "sin" was still sin whether Grace or no grace! hmmm Shall we continue in "sin" that Grace may abound? hmmm How can a person still sin if "one is not under law"?
As usual people don't understand the terms and make Paul contrary to the rest of the Word of God.[/QUOTE]


No one is saying Grace and Liberty are licenses to sin. None of us here have acted that way.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The point in Paul's Letters is often missed by both sides. Paul is not saying "don't do works". He is saying those that say they are justified by the works of the law are fallen from grace. This does not mean you can't keep the law, but it certainly means you don't HAVE to keep the law. However one has to define works. Works is often defined in scriptures as those ordinances under the law. We are told to obey the gospel, but not the law of Moses.

The Gospel message goes behind "Jesus died and rose again", That is a simple gospel statement, but clearly the Apostles elaborated on that.

Doing things or abstaining from things...if those are to be considered works are still things we MUST do AS Christians...not things we MUST do in order to become Christians.

Maintaining salvation? If one is to maintain salvation they are to maintain healthy faith, not a list of dos and don'ts. The dos and don'ts are really more of an indicator of a healthy faith. Yes if you lied you sinned. Not lying is not what saves you..or not sinning is not what saves you. Jesus saves us, by faith IN Jesus. Not sinning can't save you, but sinning willfully without repentance can reverse that, because you are willfully grieving the Spirit of God.

A Person who is walking by faith is grieved with sin and repents. A person who is not saved or on his way to not being saved, does not care anymore and will continue to sin without any thought of repentence

Good post.

People seem to forget that the God we serve who is most gracious on us & we are undeserving of it is the same God who destroyed Sodom & flooded the earth is the same God we serve now.

He hates sin!

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Couldn't agree more! The term liberty also is usually a word used without understanding. As liberty is the ability to sin without it being counted against you much in the same way as grace is used. Paul always contrasted Grace with sin and notice "sin" was still sin whether Grace or no grace! hmmm Shall we continue in "sin" that Grace may abound? hmmm How can a person still sin if "one is not under law"?
As usual people don't understand the terms and make Paul contrary to the rest of the Word of God.

No one is saying Grace and Liberty are licenses to sin. None of us here have acted that way.

Did not say who, but many do that are on this forum not necessarily this thread. Though they may not say that or "agree" that you should sin the end result is the same that one can do such and still be ok to God.

I heard a pastor who is in the UPC say once. That people should not "flaunt"(expose themselves) there liberty around. Trying to draw lustful attention to themselves least to say. Instead of it simply being called sin his mentality was not that the flesh was being sinful but it was liberty. Many have that same mentality and call that Grace. Which in reality it's false doctrine. THat type of mentality has the you shouldn't do that but if you did it's OK we are under GRACE and your salvation is secure.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Ron

Good post.

People seem to forget that the God we serve who is most gracious on us & we are undeserving of it is the same God who destroyed Sodom & flooded the earth is the same God we serve now.

He hates sin!

you know, this is true, but consider that it's not so much that God is waiting to destroy us because we sin....rather Sin affects our spiritual creature...sin separates mankind from God. The Saint that continues to sin unrepentant is destroying his own faith...faith is the key to salvation.

In some cases God is directly involved...like sending someone a strong delusion, but in most sinning is to the spiritual like doing hard drugs or hard drinking is to the physical...we are only hurting ourselves

[Steve Epley]

As much as it displeases the graceless crowd that sees the preacher as the main hindrance to spiritual growth allow me to SHARE what the scriptures teach:

1. "faith cometh by hearing" Rom. 10:17......
a. man is justified by faith Rom. 5:1......
b. we are children of God by faith Gal.3:26......
c. without faith it is impossible to please God.. Heb. 11:6......
d. we overcome by faith 1Jn. 5:4 Now go and weep "HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER?" Rom. 10:14The ULTIMATE grace preacher said "... it PLEASED GOD(it doesn't please renegades and rebels) by the foolishness of PREACHING to SAVE them that believe." 1Cor. 1:21 Not theraptists-arm chair referees-educators-attorneys-you get the picture. PREACHING preached by PREACHERS gives faith to be saved and equips saints to continue to be saved.

By the way:

It is NT doctrine about ladies hair 1Cor. 11:1-16

It is NT doctrine that teaches modesty in dress 1Tim. 2:9

It is NT doctrine that teaches against wearing gold 1Tim. 2:9

It is NT doctrine It is NT doctrine that teaches separation from the world 2Cor. 6:19

It is NT doctrine that teaches ministerial authority Heb. 13: 7, 17, 21

Genuine BIBLICAL grace teaches AGAINST doing certain things and do do certain things Titus 2:11-13

Galatians is speaking about circumcission, animal sacrifices, holidays, the ceremonial law. Grace gives NO one liberty to commit adultery-fornication-steal-murder-etc.
See Gal. 5:18-23.

[Steve Epley]

My post was spaced out I don't know what happened now it is all bunched up can someone help me I don't want to retype it.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

My post was spaced out I don't know what happened now it is all bunched up can someone help me I don't want to retype it.

...and I thought it was just you, that was "spaced out"

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Haha, you act surprised!

I heard a preacher make this statement once, and I can't disprove it - it actually makes a lot of sense. He was preaching about the man at the pool who had been lame for 38 years, and had no one to get him to the water when it was troubled.

Anyway, Jesus came along and asked the man if he would be (wanted to be) healed.

This may seem like a silly question, I mean who WOULDN'T want to be healed? But Jesus knew that if He healed the man, the man would have to walk on his own without anyone carrying him - he'd have to get a job and work for a living instead of having people give him money, and a host of other changes would have to happen in his life. In other words, he'd have to become a self-starter!

Makes sense to me!

Yes, that would make sense.

On the other hand, the story can also be told of the man that feels he cannot get up because of any number of things - condemnation, etc., but when Jesus takes your hand - He will lead you to the water and you will find your healing. Sometimes we cannot get up ourselves but then Jesus.......He leaded me beside the still waters, he restored my soul....