Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord
I understand what you believe and could take your side, from what I was taught for decades, and promote it quite well. I do understand that 3 steppers don't normally come out and literally state that unless someone speaks in tongues, they are going to hell.
However, the logical conclusion of that soteriology, is that a person is NOT saved unless they have spoken in tongues and therefore will not go to heaven because they are none of His and therefore will logically go to hell. That is the logical progression of that particular belief paradigm.
What bothers me about all of this is that a person can truly repent, get baptized, live a sanctified life and not have spoken in tongues and they're not rapture ready.
Conversely, a person can truly repent, receive the HG speaking in tongues, life a sanctified life, and not have been baptized in Jesus; name and they're still not rapture ready.
So, it appears to me, that the most important thing is NOT that their lives have changed due to a sincere surrender to the Lord, it is the completion of a 3 step paradigm. Their relationship with the Lord is of lesser importance than their completion of the 3 step plan. So the REAL deal is that these people are "damned" if they do and "damned" if they don't. Who is really getting the short shrift here?  |
I for sure do not condemn them.
I never really considered my self a one stepper or a three stepper before I came onto this forum. Maybe naive to the terminology.
These types of arguments have been going on throughout the centuries as to the precise moment of salvation. John Calvin and Joseph Arminius had similar arguments as well as Calvinism OSAS/eternal security and Arminianism ability to apostate.
I use the illustration that it is a natural process for all three to occur. Faith is like the insemination between an embryo and the semen. They both have the potential for life. The potential life in Christ, mankind, waiting for the Word to come to bring life. Life cannot come without the hearing of the word. Faith cometh by hearing.
At this point the human heart is penetrated with the life giving Word. Life begins. For us that can only see the exterior and not the heart, we do not know if anything has really taken place. That is why Jesus said shew forth the fruit of repentance for our sakes.
Luke 3.8 Acts 26.20 God can see if true faith and repentance have taken place. That is why prior to the birth of the church in Acts He could say to the thief on the cross "Today you shall be with me in paradise". He can see what would happen if that individual lived the natural progression that would transpire.
The thief cometh but for to steal, kill, destroy. Satan wants to destroy life at whatever phase it might occur. He would try to cause an abortion at this point. The parable of the sower and the seed. Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith fail him not. Not that he won't be sifted as wheat.
As the embryo of faith grows the question of "What must I do to be saved" is asked. Jesus stated you must be born again. This is of water and of the Spirit. I am not going to argue if water is the natural birth, many if not most believe that it is baptism that is represented here and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Jesus, John, & Peter all state that we must repent. Faith usually occurs before repentance. Repentance is in response to faith. Does salvation occur at faith or repentance?
Romans 10.10 For with the heart one believeth UNTO righteousness and with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation.
We will see a genuine change of heart, lifestyle, and direction if repentance has taken place. God see heart we see the fruit of repentance. We know that after faith and repentance, baptism is the natural progression of life Just as when that embryo grows the birth must take place. There is no other Name... in which/whereby we must be saved. You must be Born Again! And be baptized. He That believeth AND is baptized. We cannot preach anything other than what the Word of God Plainly speaks. The believing/faith part must precede baptism or it invalidates baptism.
You can pull a person off the street into the church service and baptize them shouting real loud and with so much authority "In the Name Of Jeus Christ" and is that person saved? Is the baptism of a baby efficacious? So it is not just speaking the Name over somebody that saves. That is not the secret formula. That is why Jesus gave the authority to remit or retain sins
John 20.23. We cannot just baptize without seeing the faith and repentance already at work. The seed and embryo meet and bring growth birth MUST take place.
Repentance means death to sin and baptism means burial of the old man. You who were dead in sins he hath quickened
Eph 2.1 The spiritual man died in the garden of Eden. Separated from God by sin. Old covenant blood of an animal covered sin but did not remit sin. This is why when they died they still lived either in a state of death in hell or in the bosom of Abraham in hell. The place of the departed souls or the grave. How were old or new covenant saints quickened, by grace through faith. It was not until the blood of Jesus was applied that sin was paid for. Now all who die go immediately to be in the presence of the Lord.
Repentance is symbolic of death, Jesus died in our place at calvary we transfer our sins to him. Baptism is symbolic of burial, Jesus was buried but the conquest of death still had not occurred. It is not until the resurrection that new life is imparted. When we come out of the baptismal waters after having the Name of Jesus invoked over us we are raised into newness of Life. this could not happened if the previous process had not taken place.
This is why we don't get baptised to cleanse the filth of the flesh. Baptism doth save us because faith and repentance have taken place. The answer of a good conscience towards God. How is this done? By the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3.21
At birth we are still not completely alive yet for we are still attached to the mother by the umbilical cord. We need to cut and sever our ties to the old life. That is our old nature as a child of wrath. We must now be led by the spiritual man that is made alive to God once again. Dead to the flesh, Alive to walk in the spirit. Our spirit communicating with Gods Spirit. Once the Umbilical cord is cut then the child is able to breathe and live free from the old life it was attached to.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
We also need to be born of the Spirit and take our spiritual breath after cutting our ties to the world. Every time it was evidenced at the conception of the church it was always accompanied by tongues. When this occurs and the reasons why I will leave it up to God.
He gave us two examples of differing occasions.
Acts 8 way after baptism. We also have
Acts 10 before Baptism as a sign that God received the Gentiles faith and repentance just like he did the Jews.
Paul emphatically asked Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? I want to bring into view the statement "Since you believed?" They were believers but I just know what the Bible teaches that we need to receive the Holy Ghost subsequent to faith. Were they not saved until they received the Holy Ghost? I doubt it. It is just that we need the Power of Gods Spirit empowering our spirit. Many times we try to please God in the flesh. We have had the mental ascent but have not fully entered into a spiritual relationship with God. This can occur because of a lack of understanding or a lack of leadership emphasizing the need for a spiritual relationship.
I don't know if this is a one step or three step. All I know is that there is a natural progression of faith that must occur. If someone dies before baptism I will leave that up to God. The biblical plan of salvation is laid out and that is what I must preach. The how and when will be made evident as faith will be demonstrated by works. The works do not save us they only demonstrate faith as in the old covenant they demonstrated faith by doing what God asked of them. The acts did not save them the faith did.
Enough said for now
God Bless
Pastor Daniel T. Salaz
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