Original Sin/Ancestral Sin

This is one of the most informative and well debated threads on this forum, very respectful, willing to admit the things one does not know for sure and yet genuinly seeking the truth.... I am completely enjoying this thread.. this is what Christian debate should look like

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Agreed. But when I believe that there is a God from creation, that tells me nothing about a Savior. Can I be saved from what I can learn from nature?

Believing that God exists is a starting point in seeking after Him. If you look around and the start questioning who made all these things and stop there, you will never learn about a Savior. But once you start seeking after the Creator, even though you don't know His name, He will be found of you. That's kind of how I came to God.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

no, man is born spiritually alive because a baby doesn't have the knowledge of good and evil and hasn't sinned therefore they are not separated from God.

Mizpeh, you propose that the newborn 1) does not possess the Spirit of God, yet 2) he is still spiritually alive and not separated from God.

We are spiritually alive because we have been quickened/made alive by the Spirit of God and have Christ living within us (Ephesians 2:1,5; Colossians 2:13; Galatians 2:20).

How can a child be united with God spiritually and not possess the Spirit of God? What is the source of his spiritual life, if not the Spirit of God?

Also...

According to John 3:1-6 the spirit of man needs to be born of God (i.e., of the Spirit of God). Are you suggesting that a child's spirit is in no need of being born of God? If the child does not possess the Spirit of God as you said, what will quicken his mortal body? (Romans 8:11)

[Adino]

Here's another interesting issue along these lines.

John 9:1-3

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The disciples bring up the possibility of a man sinning prior to his birth. Not saying they themselves believed it was possible but apparently the concept was known and promoted by somebody. How could the man have sinned prior to being born resulting in blindness? In the foreknowledge of God?

The Jews directly connected physical infirmity with sin. One of the reasons Christ healed the lame man he had just forgiven was to prove to his audience he did have the power to forgive.

I'll try to get back to this later. Good discussion, everyone.

[oracle]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Okay folks here is the question if infants die sinners how are they saved?

Only faith in Christ blood can make the sinner clean?

Baby has exercised NO faith yet according to you born a sinner then are ALL babies or any babies going to Hell?

I can't see infants as sinners because they have not sin though they have the nature that is disposed to sin and it will given time but sinners at birth?

Here are some more good questions.

Q: Are infants born saved?
Q: Are infants born into the Covenant?
Q: Do infants need to be born again?
Q: Does the first birth inherit the Kingdom?

Equally we must say that infants are not righteous because they have not done GOOD nor EVIL if we are going to base it upon works.

[oracle]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I did not mean "BY" their innocence per se, but because they have not the comprehension of their sinfulness, Christ, through the cross, makes the difference in spite of their lack of willful acceptance of Him.

If an adult does not comprehend their sinfulness, are they innocent because they do not comprehend? Another thought, infants can neither choose God, nor reject God. Are they not in a neutral position before God?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Adino

Mizpeh, you propose that the newborn 1) does not possess the Spirit of God, yet 2) he is still spiritually alive and not separated from God.

We are spiritually alive because we have been quickened/made alive by the Spirit of God and have Christ living within us (Ephesians 2:1,5; Colossians 2:13; Galatians 2:20).

How can a child be united with God spiritually and not possess the Spirit of God? What is the source of his spiritual life, if not the Spirit of God?

I propose that we are born without sin. No sins are attributed to us upon birth, no sin of our parents, no sin of Adam, no sin of our own commitance, none! Sin is what separates us from God. Death is separation whether it is separation from the body (physical) or separation from the presence of God (spiritual). Therefore we are born spiritually alive because we are not separated from God by sin albeit the Spirit of God is not in us. When is having the Spirit of God in us a necessary requirement for being spiritually alive. The Bible tells us we were dead in our sins and trespasses. So the bottom line for me is that newborn is not dead in sins and trespasses because it hasn't sinned.

According to John 3:1-6 the spirit of man needs to be born of God (i.e., of the Spirit of God). Are you suggesting that a child's spirit is in no need of being born of God? If the child does not possess the Spirit of God as you said, what will quicken his mortal body? (Romans 8:11)

In the new covenant a SINNER needs to be born again. A child is not a sinner because a child does not have the knowledge of good and evil and cannot be accountable for its sins. Yes, a child does not need to be born again. God will quicken the child's mortal body just as He will quicken the mortal bodies of all the OT saints who were not filled with the Spirit of God including the thief on the cross.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by oracle

Here are some more good questions.

Q: Are infants born saved?
Q: Are infants born into the Covenant?
Q: Do infants need to be born again?
Q: Does the first birth inherit the Kingdom?

Equally we must say that infants are not righteous because they have not done GOOD nor EVIL if we are going to base it upon works.

1. Infants are born innocent not saved.
2. Nope they are born innocent.
3. Infants do not possess the will or ability to be born again. This is goofy.
4. NOPE! Infants do not inherit the kingdom by virtue of their natural birth. IF they are saved they are given eternal life at the judgment BECAUSE they committed NO sin and had not the ability to choose.

What is so astonishing about this concept. You guys saved everyone from the Pope to the drug head and want to fuss about babies . Good grief!!!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Here's another interesting issue along these lines.

John 9:1-3

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The disciples bring up the possibility of a man sinning prior to his birth. Not saying they themselves believed it was possible but apparently the concept was known and promoted by somebody. How could the man have sinned prior to being born resulting in blindness? In the foreknowledge of God?

The Jews directly connected physical infirmity with sin. One of the reasons Christ healed the lame man he had just forgiven was to prove to his audience he did have the power to forgive.

I'll try to get back to this later. Good discussion, everyone.

You are kidding right? Quoting these guys as if it was a fact and Jesus debunking their concept?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by oracle

If an adult does not comprehend their sinfulness, are they innocent because they do not comprehend? Another thought, infants can neither choose God, nor reject God. Are they not in a neutral position before God?

Adults have freewill that is the difference.