I just received my book...

[Felicity]

I can understand the concern about television, I truly can. I don't have much use for it myself and feel like most people and most homes are better off without it for a number of reasons ...... one being the absolute filth, drivel and ungodliness that makes up most television programming ..... not to mention the fact that it absolutely is an insult to my intelligence and insults the Holy Spirit who is supposed to be Lord and Master of my life.

But the fact is that it's no longer an issue in many UP churches even with the stipulations in place and it hasn't been an issue in many churches for some time now. It's a moot issue ... a non-issue ..... for many moderate and even more conservative pastors, preachers and evangelists.

Many if not most OP churches have members in leadership positions and sitting on elder and deacon boards who have one or several TVs in their homes.

Television is here to stay like it or not. If a person can make use of it to get the message of the Gospel out then it helps to redeem the the total uselessness and banality of the majority of what comes across this particular medium.

I think that a lot of the people who are crusaders for the resolution are just caught up in the issue and don't understand totally what it really is that they're crusading for.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Just a Shepherd

I read the whole book tonight and was impressed with much of what was written. I personally was "on the fence" about the issue, knowing that we would not be using TV to advertise here because it is not cost effective.

After reading the book, I am persuaded that to allow TV advertising would be a bad move for the UPC. There were a couple of thoughts in the book that jumped out at me.

1. The greatest revival was had by the early church by going and personally preaching the gospel to every creature. Today we want greater results with less effort. Televangelism will no doubt further sooth the carnal conscience of those pew sitters who refuse to engage the society they live in by making them believe that they are "reaching the lost" electronically.

Ah...you just gotta love a polemic. Michael Moore was able to convince a lot of people by reporting only part of the facts and making false arguments.

Problem #1, this statement you posted ASSUMES that today's world is no way different than theirs. Alright, but let's consider something. We live in a day and age that has been "evangelized"...many people were reared in a church. Many more have had the JWs and Mormons breathing down their necks and are already unreceptive to a "confrontation"...an advertisement is passive. There is nobody there to argue with them.

Door knocking today is nothing like is was then. People don't open their doors often when we do door knocking or they have already all piled into the SUV and drove to another town. There are some people and some places where we can never get into...such as gated communities and countries like Saudi Arabia.

Yes, they did it by personally preaching....how else would they have done it? They did NOT have TV, Radio or internet....btw are did these authors use that reason to NOT use the internet either?

Also the didn't actually do ALL things by face to face personal interactions...they also used another medium...they wrote letters

Problem #2...uh, you make an assertion about pew sitters....but what is the argument to support it? If there are these pew sitters already then what's the point? If they aren't doing anything now anyways....BTW There are groups from those other guys....you know the Trinitarians...that are VERY active in going out and personally witness to people even though the Trinitarians are ALL over TV....so if we can't do it but they can...what's wrong with us?

2. All modern technology is not the same. One great point was made that if you could push a button and blow up the Internet, it would make about as much sense as blowing up a library. but if you could push the same button and blow up television, what would be lost?

There are a LOT of TV programs that are educational and informative. If you blew up the Internet you'd blow up a LOT of porn...kiddie porn and other sick thing that have seemingly grown exponentially since the advent of the Internet. Speaking of libraries....no TV in libraries BUT you can legally watch PORNOGRAPHY on their computers in the library with kids around.

Still, the difference doe not explain WHY we should not reach those people who are TV watchers...

What is meant by "television" is not the screen or circuitry, but rather the entertainment industry, their ungodly philosophy, and the promotion of anti-Christian values or amoral values at best.

*Buzzer* awwwww. sorry, but that is the answer. What is meant by "Television" is that box of electronics that is capable of receiving some sort of broadcast signal either by virtue of the air waves or now through a direct cable signal. It's NOT all entertainment. It's not all THEIR ungodly philosophy anymore than the Internet is some porn freaks ungodly philosophy....yet we don't feel a problem with countering such a philosophy by spreading the gospel on it? If this is true as you say of the TV then all the MORE reason to spread the truth to those people watching it.

Watching TV, is watching TV, whether you do it on a big screen, a computer screen, an i pod screen, or a cell phone screen. Just because the method of delivery is different doesn't make it something other than "TV."

profound statement

I am personally opposed to allowing televangelism frankly because there are some elements of the UPC that embarrass me. Preachers who are crass and undisciplined in the pulpit will do much to further the negative image that some already want to exploit.

And preachers that are intelligent and eloquent might do MORE to change that negative perception!

Broadcasting services and conferences where holy anointing has been replaced by showmanship, screaming, wild unverifiable tales, and hype will be a big turn off.

To some....but then again if we do personal evangelism and invite them to those conferences they are going to see it anyways....besides are we talking about advertisement or actually having services on TV?

Showing the world some of our worldly kids at Youth Congress or some of the rock star wannabes that pass for musicians these days will make me want to distance myself from the UPC even further.

Then take a hike...but how does this have anything to do with TV advertisement

I would love to see the pro-TV side do a project like this and present the facts as they see it. Overall all I think this book will have a big influence on the upcoming vote. I just wish I could afford to go to General Conference to be there for it.

Im still waiting for the anti-TV side facts...can you post some?

[Just a Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Ah...you just gotta love a polemic. Michael Moore was able to convince a lot of people by reporting only part of the facts and making false arguments.

I read the book and didn't find many false arguments. No more than were in this post of yours.

Problem #1, this statement you posted ASSUMES that today's world is no way different than theirs. Alright, but let's consider something. We live in a day and age that has been "evangelized"...many people were reared in a church. Many more have had the JWs and Mormons breathing down their necks and are already unreceptive to a "confrontation"...an advertisement is passive. There is nobody there to argue with them.

I didn't assume anything. The times really have very little to do with it. The early church dealt with a proliferation of false religions also. (See Acts 17:22). People haven't changed that much since the early days and the fact remains that the commands of Jesus to go forth were not meant as mandates for church marketing. Your supposition that "many" are "unreceptive." Is a poor reason to abandon personal evangelism in favor of TV advertising.

Door knocking today is nothing like is was then. People don't open their doors often when we do door knocking or they have already all piled into the SUV and drove to another town. There are some people and some places where we can never get into...such as gated communities and countries like Saudi Arabia.

First of all, people who live in gated communities also go the grocery store, the dry cleaners, and the gas stations. They work in public, shop in public, and live in public. We don't need TV to reach them. I'm sure once we get on TV, Saudia Arabia will welcome our TV networks with open arms. Earth to Praxeas...

Yes, they did it by personally preaching....how else would they have done it? They did NOT have TV, Radio or internet....btw are did these authors use that reason to NOT use the internet either?

No - the reasons against TV are primarily because of the type of medium that TV is (one way communications) and the statement of approval (of the medium) that televangelism would make to the members of the church.

Also the didn't actually do ALL things by face to face personal interactions...they also used another medium...they wrote letters

The issue at hand is not whether or not to use any medium, but whether to use TV. Letters? You are comparing TV to letters? Lol!

Problem #2...uh, you make an assertion about pew sitters....but what is the argument to support it? If there are these pew sitters already then what's the point? If they aren't doing anything now anyways....BTW There are groups from those other guys....you know the Trinitarians...that are VERY active in going out and personally witness to people even though the Trinitarians are ALL over TV....so if we can't do it but they can...what's wrong with us?

You didn't read my assertion very well. I suggested that the use of televangelism would cause some to falsely believe that they were carrying out the Great Commission by broadcasting a service or playing a TV ad. making it more difficult to get people engaged in personal evangelism.

There are a LOT of TV programs that are educational and informative. If you blew up the Internet you'd blow up a LOT of porn...kiddie porn and other sick thing that have seemingly grown exponentially since the advent of the Internet. Speaking of libraries....no TV in libraries BUT you can legally watch PORNOGRAPHY on their computers in the library with kids around.

I don't know where you live, but most places in the country, you cannot watch kiddie porn in a library. First off it is a federal offense, second the library usually requires people to sign in with a library card, so doing so would be stupid, and thirdly, many places like our city filter porn at the library.

Still, the difference doe not explain WHY we should not reach those people who are TV watchers...

No one is suggesting that we don't reach TV watchers. We reach them everyday by meeting them and sharing the gospel face to face.

*Buzzer* awwwww. sorry, but that is the answer. What is meant by "Television" is that box of electronics that is capable of receiving some sort of broadcast signal either by virtue of the air waves or now through a direct cable signal. It's NOT all entertainment. It's not all THEIR ungodly philosophy anymore than the Internet is some porn freaks ungodly philosophy....yet we don't feel a problem with countering such a philosophy by spreading the gospel on it? If this is true as you say of the TV then all the MORE reason to spread the truth to those people watching it.

Well if your definition of TV is a plastic box with wires then I can understand why you don't get it.

And preachers that are intelligent and eloquent might do MORE to change that negative perception!

They are usually the ones that don't have any desire to be a TV star, so they won't get much airtime. The funny men, the watch how crude I can be, and the "rock star" preachers will gravitate to the cameras. Of course this is purely speculation on my part having once been in the world and watching religious programming like TBN while stoned and laughing at the stupidity of it with my friends.

To some....but then again if we do personal evangelism and invite them to those conferences they are going to see it anyways....besides are we talking about advertisement or actually having services on TV?

We are little more careful than that with new converts.

Then take a hike...but how does this have anything to do with TV advertisement

Take a hike? That's a good answer. How bout you take a hike?

Im still waiting for the anti-TV side facts...can you post some?

I just did but you apparently are still clueless.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

I am curious what the largest ALJC church ON Television has to say about this bruhaha?

Their growth was NOT connect to television I do NOT believe Bro. McCool would say it was. By the way he has had television for years. So no biggie.

[CC1]

Just A Shepherd,

We have an Amish community not far from where I live. I could probably get you a good deal on a black carriage and a couple of horses.

Also if you are getting rid of your radio and computers I would be interested. My desktop recently died. Please call me before you get rid of your telephone.

Enjoy the 19th century!

[Just a Shepherd]

Originally Posted by CC1

Just A Shepherd,

We have an Amish community not far from where I live. I could probably get you a good deal on a black carriage and a couple of horses.

Also if you are getting rid of your radio and computers I would be interested. My desktop recently died. Please call me before you get rid of your telephone.

Enjoy the 19th century!

Just because something is "modern" doesn't mean it's good. I suppose that you are going to divorce your wife soon and ride around on your Harley without a shirt because it's hip and cool, right?

PS - I have Amish near me too and I would much prefer to spend a sunday afternoon on the farm with them, than drinking moderately and watching Titans football on a big screen with you. But hey, Enjoy the 21st century!

[Hegavmelif]

Originally Posted by Just a Shepherd

Just because something is "modern" doesn't mean it's good. I suppose that you are going to divorce your wife soon and ride around on your Harley without a shirt because it's hip and cool, right?

PS - I have Amish near me too and I would much prefer to spend a sunday afternoon on the farm with them, than drinking moderately and watching Titans football on a big screen with you. But hey, Enjoy the 21st century!

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Just a Shepherd

Just because something is "modern" doesn't mean it's good. I suppose that you are going to divorce your wife soon and ride around on your Harley without a shirt because it's hip and cool, right?

PS - I have Amish near me too and I would much prefer to spend a sunday afternoon on the farm with them, than drinking moderately and watching Titans football on a big screen with you. But hey, Enjoy the 21st century!

As one who also drinks moderately (diet Coke) and watches Titans games every chance I get, my feeling are hurt!

[Steve Epley]

TV or not TV that is the question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[StillStanding]

I have to hand it to the ultra-cons for being assertive in getting this booklet out! The mods and libs better get their act in gear if they want a chance to get the TV resolution passed!