Bill Clinton Loses Temper, Lashes Out at Pro-Lifer

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

He is looking our way FOLKS!!!!

There are a lot of Democrats that agree with the Republicans and the Pro-Life position. In fact Pro-Life Democrats have played key roles in assisting Republicans with what little (very little) they have done in the way of abortion. Of course Pro-Life Democrats want to move further than just banning abortion with initiatives that are more holistic. Pro-Life Democrats want to address the issues women face to reduce the number of abortions. Most Pro-Life Democratic initiatives are initiatives that Pro-Choice Democrats can support seeing that they help address the issues women face. Many of us who identify with Democrats on some level pray that one day the Democratic Party will move away from it's position in supporting abortion on demand without question. For those who may be interested here is a link to more information on Pro-Life Democrats.

http://democratsforlife.org/

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Here's an ethical issue I've personally struggled with and maybe mentioned once or twice. Shopping at WalMart. China forces women to have abortions as a policy. Is it unethical to by "Made In China" in a retailer that provides a significant amount of resources to the Chinese economy? Since they're Communist, is this the same as feeding their government with revenues? I kinda feel this question is like asking if it would be ok to buy "Made in Germany" while the ovens and gas chambers were in operation.

I just feel uneasy while leaving the store. What are your thoughts?

Questions:

Is there evidence to support that Chineese have more abortions than Americans?

Are "forced" abortions more or less lethal for the victims?

In your analogy regarding Germany, was there one politcal party that predominately supported the evil work of "the ovens"?

Does the USA have a political party that champions and celebrates the killing of the unborn in the name of "choice"?



Folks, if we believe God used the USA to stop Hitler and the Third Reich, should we not expect a more severe judgement for the holocaust of 60,000,000 of the most defenseless of our babies in the past few decades?


There is a special place in hell for those who remain silent.

[Ferd]

Chris keeps saying it. I still dont see it.

A democrat that opposes abortion is about as useful as a football bat.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Questions:

Is there evidence to support that Chineese have more abortions than Americans?

Yes. Abortions in the United States average between 1 and 1.6 million a year. The average in China is between 7.5 and 7.9 million a year.

Are "forced" abortions more or less lethal for the victims?

No. But no body complains about saving a couple bucks by shopping at WalMart even though it is a major contributor to the Chinese economy and it's Communistic system who's abortion rate is roughly four times that of the US and forces women to abort by order of the state. In America, the abortions performed are strictly voluntary, placing moral responsibility on individual women and the doctors who practice them.

In your analogy regarding Germany, was there one politcal party that predominately supported the evil work of "the ovens"?

Yes.

Does the USA have a political party that champions and celebrates the killing of the unborn in the name of "choice"?

Yes and No. The Democratic Party and a sizable number of Republicans also favor "choice" on the issue but do not "celebrate" the killing of the unborn. Many just feel that the government is incapable of adequately dealing with the issue's complexities. Seeing that nearly a quarter of registered Republicans (22%) polled and almost half of Democrats (47%) polled agree with choice, both parties are therefore partly to blame. There are registered Pro-Life Democrats (43%) polled who agree with registered Pro-Life Republicans (88%) polled. So both parties play a major role in the debate. The Zogby poll illustrates that the majority of registered Americans are Pro-Life.

What I find Amazing is that the Republicans can have a majority in Congress, the majority of the American people on their side, and control the White House...but still accomplish virtually nothing. It's a token issue. Republicans as a political party are capitalist without apology. However, they're not admitting how they are politically capitalizing on the abortion issue and the children that are dying while they do.

Folks, if we believe God used the USA to stop Hitler and the Third Reich, should we not expect a more severe judgement for the holocaust of 60,000,000 of the most defenseless of our babies in the past few decades?

I believe God may indeed judge the US over this. In many ways an Islamic government would institute laws that would be more righteous from a biblical perspective. In Muslim countries abortion and homosexuality are death sentences. God may use them to bring this godless system to it's knees. That is unless God judges the individual. If God is strictly judging individuals we have hope, since the majority of Americans value life and do not condone or procure abortions.

There is a special place in hell for those who remain silent.

I'm not advocating silence. Amen.

But we vote with our dollar as well as our ballot. That's why I'm uncomfortable with WalMart and it's being in bed with the Chinese economy.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Ferd

Chris keeps saying it. I still dont see it.

A democrat that opposes abortion is about as useful as a football bat.

The Republican measures to limit Partial Birth abortions couldn't have been passed without the support of Pro-Life Democrats.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Ferd

Chris keeps saying it. I still dont see it.

A democrat that opposes abortion is about as useful as a football bat.

02/10/2008 Pro-Life Democrats Praised in Tennessee
http://www.lifenews.com/state2847.html

1/22/2008 - Pro-Life MN House Members Intdroduce Pregnant Women and Parent Support Act
http://www.democratsforlife.org/inde...d=319&Itemid=2

State Representative Mary Ellen Otremba
State Representative Patti FritzState Representative Al DotyNews Release Contact: Charlene BrinerMinnesota House of Representatives (651) 296-5809District 11B (651) 296-3201 charlene.briner@house.mn 445 State Office Building, St. Paul, MN 55155 January 22, 2008 PRO-LIFE DFL HOUSE MEMBERS INTRODUCE PREGNANT WOMENT AND PARENT SUPPORT ACT A group of pro-life DFL House members unveiled a package of legislative proposals today that offers a concrete set of practical solutions to the challenges Minnesota women experience when faced with an unplanned pregnancy.Called the "Pregnant Women and Parent Support Act," the legislation encourages and supports a woman’s decision to have a child by removing some of the economic hardships faced by new parents."So often today, women are forced to make an agonizing choice between moral suffering and economic hardship," said Representative Mary Ellen Otremba (DFL-Long Prairie). "These proposals offer common ground to legislators and Minnesotans from all points of view that will result in more women choosing life for their unborn child."Among the proposals are several provisions that offer assistance with economic hardships imposed by restrictive health insurance policies, including:

* Eliminating health insurance waiting periods for maternity benefits, children's health supervision, and prenatal care services;
* Stopping pre-existing condition discrimination on the basis of pregnancy;
* Preventing insurance companies from penalizing pregnant women to ensure a woman feels able and free to choose life.

A grant program for parenting supports to assist college students in creating healthy and strong families is also included. "College students who find themselves facing an unplanned pregnancy shouldn't have to decide between having a child or completing their education," said Representative Pattie Fritz, (DFL-Faribault). "This legislation offers students a way to do both, through practical support on parenting, encouragement, and most importantly, on-campus childcare services."The bill also supports and encourages adoption through a $1,000 tax credit for adoption-related expenses and requires improved adoption referral information. Other provisions include:

* Provisions for clear and unbiased information concerning alpha-fetoprotein tests (used primarily to determine the presence/severity of birth defects)
* Provisions for clear and unbiased information regarding adoption options
* Creates a new toll-free support number to ensure there is a list of support resources available for first-time parents who choose to carry their child to term – including those new parents lacking access to the Internet.
* State matching funds for the Women Infant Children (WIC) program, which offers nutritious foods, nutrition education and access to health care for low-income pregnant women.

"There are many great parts in this bill that could stand on their own, " said Representative Al Doty (DFL-Royalton). "Taken together, they should go a long way in easing many of the problems a woman currently faces when she is choosing life after an unplanned pregnancy.”-30-
Last Updated ( Jan 31, 2008 at 01:54 PM )

Only a Republican would play partisan politics with the lives of the unborn and disregard Democratic measures that are on the side of life.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Yes. Abortions in the United States average between 1 and 1.6 million a year. The average in China is between 7.5 and 7.9 million a year.

I'm not sure what the point is in comparing abortion numbers, but understand that China doesn't report abortions as accurately as the US. In addition, many live babies are murdered if they don't meet certain criteria.

[ChristopherHall]

Here's a passage that has always disturbed me. When a woman is suspected of being unfaithful she is to undergo a trial by ordeal. Here is a more dynamic translation of the ordeal....

" 21 “At this point the priest must put the woman under oath by saying, ‘May the people know that the Lord’s curse is upon you when he makes you infertile, causing your womb to shrivel[d] and your abdomen to swell. 22 Now may this water that brings the curse enter your body and cause your abdomen to swell and your womb to shrivel.[e]’ And the woman will be required to say, ‘Yes, let it be so.’ 23 And the priest will write these curses on a piece of leather and wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He will make the woman drink the bitter water that brings on the curse. When the water enters her body, it will cause bitter suffering if she is guilty.

25 “The priest will take the jealousy offering from the woman’s hand, lift it up before the Lord, and carry it to the altar. 26 He will take a handful of the flour as a token portion and burn it on the altar, and he will require the woman to drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself by being unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings on the curse will cause bitter suffering. Her abdomen will swell and her womb will shrink [f], and her name will become a curse among her people. 28 But if she has not defiled herself and is pure, then she will be unharmed and will still be able to have children." - Numbers 5:25-28 (NLT)

The obvious implication is that she would be left barren. However some rabbis have written that the purpose of the woman's womb shriveling under the judgment of God was twofold. First, to destroy the unborn seed resulting from her sin. And second, to render her barren.

That's always bothered me.

What are some of your thoughts on this?

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

Here's a passage that has always disturbed me. When a woman is suspected of being unfaithful she is to undergo a trial by ordeal. Here is a more dynamic translation of the ordeal....

" 21 “At this point the priest must put the woman under oath by saying, ‘May the people know that the Lord’s curse is upon you when he makes you infertile, causing your womb to shrivel[d] and your abdomen to swell. 22 Now may this water that brings the curse enter your body and cause your abdomen to swell and your womb to shrivel.[e]’ And the woman will be required to say, ‘Yes, let it be so.’ 23 And the priest will write these curses on a piece of leather and wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He will make the woman drink the bitter water that brings on the curse. When the water enters her body, it will cause bitter suffering if she is guilty.

25 “The priest will take the jealousy offering from the woman’s hand, lift it up before the Lord, and carry it to the altar. 26 He will take a handful of the flour as a token portion and burn it on the altar, and he will require the woman to drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself by being unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings on the curse will cause bitter suffering. Her abdomen will swell and her womb will shrink [f], and her name will become a curse among her people. 28 But if she has not defiled herself and is pure, then she will be unharmed and will still be able to have children." - Numbers 5:25-28 (NLT)

The obvious implication is that she would be left barren. However some rabbis have written that the purpose of the woman's womb shriveling under the judgment of God was twofold. First, to destroy the unborn seed resulting from her sin. And second, to render her barren.

That's always bothered me.

What are some of your thoughts on this?

Chris, would you mind starting a new thread on this?

I'm asking because I'm afraid it will get lost on this thread, and I also don't see how it has relevance to the topic here.

But I would like to know where you are going with the above post.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I'm not sure what the point is in comparing abortion numbers, but understand that China doesn't report abortions as accurately as the US. In addition, many live babies are murdered if they don't meet certain criteria.

Amen. I was just thinking one day after shopping at WalMart if my dollar was going to fuel the Chinese economy. Was a voting for forced abortion and infanticide with my dollar?

The question is similar to if it would be ethical to shop at a retailer who helped fuel the German economy while they were sentencing Jews to the gas chambers and ovens.

We focus on our ballots being "Pro-Life"...but I've often heard that we vote with our dollar as well. Do we shop at places that would benefit China with it's abominable policies of forced abortion and infanticide?

Some would criticize others without mercy for voting Democratic...while voting for China and it's policies with their dollars. It just doesn't seem consistent.