We Must Rethink A Few Things

[pelathais]

[quote=Todd;374653]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Your spirit is really starting to show right there toward the end.

God. please save us all!!

A plea for Universalism?

[Todd]

[QUOTE=pelathais;374656]

Originally Posted by Todd

A plea for Universalism?

Overwhelming proof that anything can be spun or twisted in someone's mind.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by bishoph

And some of you talk about us Pentecostals revising history! My good friend you obviously need to go back and take Pentecostal History 101 again. When the Oneness brethren left the AOG it was NOT a friendly exit.

Lets look at some comparisons:

The AOG officially voted, making the doctrine of the trinity the official stand of the organization, thus forcing all of its members to align themselves with said doctrine if not by actual belief, certainly by affiliation.

The UPCI officially voted to allow TV advertising and broadcasting making it the official stand of the organization, thus forcing all of its members to align themselves with said stand if not by actual belief, certainly by affiliation.

The OP's (1915) took a stand for oneness doctrine and against trinitarian heresy.

The WPF has taken a stand for Doctrines of Holiness/Sanctification/Separation and against compromise

The Op's left and formed several groups each of which preached; Oneness theology, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the in-filling of the Holy Ghost. They also taught Holiness/Sanctification/Separation.

The Leadership of the WPF left to form a new group whose purpose is to perpetuate the preaching of Oneness theology, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the in-filling of the Holy Ghost, while maintaining a strong stand on Holiness/Sanctification/Separation.

When the OP's departed the AOG, they vehemently tried to persuade other brethren to join them, and were persecuted for doing so, and charged with being not only unethical, and power hungry, but heretical as well.

The WPF leaders and those who are following them have been accused of being unethical, power hungry, and in some cases heretical because of their Separation doctrine. (And they have not "vehemently" tried to get others to follow, they simply sent out invitations.)

The OP's exit was, as you termed it, "godly, gentlemanly, friendly and humble" exit........on their part. But it was not viewed as such from the other side. They were accused of bringing division to the "Body of Christ," and while they attempted to reach out to the "brethren" they were scandalized and cut off by those who did not agree with them doctrinally.

The WPF has in some manner, as you stated, repeated history. They have taken a stand for biblically held doctrinal beliefs, they have departed, and formed another group, they have been accused of bringing division to the "Body of Christ," and while they have consistently stated their love for and willingness to work with their "brethren," they are being scandalized by those who do not agree with them.

Respectfully Submitted

The AOG made it mandatory to believe and accept the Trinity as essential Christian doctrine....You HAD to believe it. HAD to teach it. Had to be Trinitarian

RES 4 did NOT require anyone to believe it is OK to advertise on TV. Did not force them to teach their church it was ok either....that was a terrible comparison Bishop

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I don't understand how a secondary issue (non-salvational) is appropriate to leave the UPC over. I do realize that some will take issue with my 'secondary issue" distinction.

I agree with you. This is like saying if you don't agree with how the UPC elects officials you are going to hell.

It's one thing to take a stand. It's another to formulate a salvational doctrine out of it

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Proverbs 11:29 "He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart."

I seem to have missed this post.

I appreciate you posting this verse of scripture. I have not had cause to meditate on it for a long time. But now, it is a very appropriate scripture to do some meditating upon.

A wind blows, like loose sand in the wind...there they go. Inheriting the wind, tossed, having no cohesion to the rock, gone like sand with a strong blow, following after leaders posing as angels (messengers) of light.

I can see it as plainly as I can see anything. Many of these Pastors that run after this phantom of superficial holiness are going to witness the spirit of that thing active in their own churches. Some, if not many of these pastors are going to watch as, like the sand in the wind, their own churches are going to erode away to nothing.

My advice to those pastors...Either have some good strong investments socked away that you can live on, or have a good trade or skill so that you can go find a job. Some of you are going to need it when the support that you've rested on from the church is all eroded away...like the shifting sand in the wind.

The foolishness of your action will be to inherit the wind.

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

I seem to have missed this post.

A wind blows, like loose sand in the wind...there they go. Inheriting the wind, tossed, having no cohesion to the rock, gone like sand with a strong blow, following after leaders posing as angels (messengers) of light.

Apprehended, while I do not know you, I have enjoyed reading many of your posts on a myriad of subjects. However, I have respectfully disagreed with many of the things you have posted in regard to the WPF and its leadership. This post IMO went way over the top. The scripture you allude to is one which refers to the "ministers of satan being transformed into angels of light," that is quite a heavy charge and one that I cannot excuse.

To state opinions about an organization, a group of men, or an individual is one thing, however you are now doing what you have charged these good men of. You are stating your spiritual superiority and condemning them for their alleged wickedness. While you may be bitter with them or take issue with their beliefs, these men are good men who have decided to pursue a new direction for themselves and others who wish to join them.

With regard to this issue I have read your posts declaring that if they were indeed preachers of righteousness they should have stayed and preached the Word until either everyone was convicted and transformed by their message, or until they were kicked out. But what about the biblical notion that if these men are, as you propose, fallen from grace and in rebellion to the Word of God, are you not mandated by scripture to refrain from speaking evil of them (IMO calling someone a minister os satan is speaking evil of them) seeking rather to restore such a one in the spirit of meekness? If indeed these men are as vile as you propose, should you not seek to "save" them from themselves and the sin they are committing?

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Apprehended, while I do not know you, I have enjoyed reading many of your posts on a myriad of subjects. However, I have respectfully disagreed with many of the things you have posted in regard to the WPF and its leadership. This post IMO went way over the top. The scripture you allude to is one which refers to the "ministers of satan being transformed into angels of light," that is quite a heavy charge and one that I cannot excuse.

To state opinions about an organization, a group of men, or an individual is one thing, however you are now doing what you have charged these good men of. You are stating your spiritual superiority and condemning them for their alleged wickedness. While you may be bitter with them or take issue with their beliefs, these men are good men who have decided to pursue a new direction for themselves and others who wish to join them.

With regard to this issue I have read your posts declaring that if they were indeed preachers of righteousness they should have stayed and preached the Word until either everyone was convicted and transformed by their message, or until they were kicked out. But what about the biblical notion that if these men are, as you propose, fallen from grace and in rebellion to the Word of God? Are you not mandated by scripture to refrain from speaking evil of them (IMO calling someone a minister os satan is speaking evil of them) seeking rather to restore such a one in the spirit of meekness? If indeed these men are as vile as you propose, should you not seek to "save" them from themselves and the sin they are committing?

Bishop...

You are absolutely RIGHT.

That was indeed over the top. Sometimes, while digging in the alluvial soil of reason one can work up more heat with their sweat than light to see how to dig.

Thanks for the correction, my brother. I apologize.

As I said before, I do get carried away with my passions now and then, but I am quick to change direction after seeing the light and getting knocked from my high horse on my personal road to Damascus.


Again, thank you.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Todd

Overwhelming proof that anything can be spun or twisted in someone's mind.

Hey thanks for being there for me Todd!

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Hey thanks for being there for me Todd!

Oh, what would we do...! Oh, what would we do...! Oh, what would we do without them?

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

When the sin of politics enter into the org, it ceases to be divine. The bible speaks that we are to be subject one to another. I believe that means that those that are close to us should be the ones we subject ourselves to and be accountable to. They are the ones that know us in our private and personal life, and can be more objective in speaking words of restoration and reconciliation, and at times words of rebuke and correction to us when we need it. A DS that may only know your name will not be a good person to be holding you accountable.


I could also add to the above that there are times that the System is defective, as it is in TN, and accountability becomes subjective to who you know.

A speaker of truth!