Should Christians be allowed to Drive Cars or Fly Planes?

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

I believe that that has already came to pass... and I am a futurist.

I thought you just said you agreed with Brother Blume? You can't be both, you have to make up your mind right now! No funny business, its either one or the other.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Correct again!

So, why is it that you do not believe in the future events of a tribulation?

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

I thought you just said you agreed with Brother Blume? You can't be both, you have to make up your mind right now! No funny business, its either one or the other.

I said that I agree with Blume on MOST of this stuff. Not ALL of this stuff.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Okay, so I'm a bit confused. If a preterist isn't the same as pre-trib, then what exactly is a preterist?

Your question is why I had earlier posted the following:

Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days (or End Times) refer to events which actually happened in the first century after Christ's birth. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning "past". Adherents of Preterism are known as Preterists. --Wikipedia

"Preterist" means past in fulfillment, and "Futurist" means future in fulfillment. Preterist basically means the opposite of Futurist. Futurists believe most end-time prophecies (especially the big three major ones - Parousia, Resurrection, and Judgment) are yet to be fulfilled. Preterists believe that most or all of Bible Prophecy (especially the big three events) has already been fulfilled in Christ and the on-going expansion of His Kingdom. Most Futurists do not really believe Christ has been successful yet in fully establishing His kingdom. --International Preterist Assoc.

A preterist is one who believes all prophecy has been fulfilled. Such fulfillment firmly establishes Jesus as the true Savior of the world, thus allowing the Church to now live in the fulness of His promise and power.

I hope this helps!

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Partial Preterism is the view that almost all Biblical prophecy is past (excluding the The Second Coming, The Resurrection and The Judgment).

The term 'Partial Preterism' refers to that wide spectrum of thought which is not fully Futurist, but which incorporates some portion of what the Futurist view has to offer. Though there is a wide range of doctrine among Partial Preterists, they are united in the belief that some, but not all, prophecies were fulfilled in the destruction of the Jewish nation in A.D. 70. Most partial preterist systems believe that the "big three" are yet future - the Great Judgment, Resurrection and Second Coming of Christ.

These events are yet future:

* The coming (parousia) of Christ
* The day of the Lord
* The resurrection of the dead
* The rapture of the living
* The (final) judgment
* The end of history

Complete Preterism is "2. (Theol.) One who believes the prophecies of the Apocalypse to have been already fulfilled. --Farrar."

Full Preterists do not believe in a rapture to come, whereas Partial Preterists do believe in a rapture. Both parties agree that Matthew 24 was totally fulfilled, though. Partial Preterists believe that the scriptures in Matthew 24 that have been taken to speak about the rapture are misapplied references to the rapture. The true rapture references are in 1 Corinthians 15, and other places.

Partial Preterism states that some of the references to the coming of the Son of Man do not refer to the rapture, but rather to a judgment that occurred in 70 AD.

Partial Preterists believe the following verses literally:

Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus' wrath came in their day, their generation. It was a monumental event for the City of Jerusalem to be destroyed, as you read in the latter part of Matthew 23, for they crucified Him in ultimate unbelief. As the cross is central to the entire Bible, the Jerusalem rejection of Christ through crucifying Him, was the greatest evil accomplished, thus giving credence to the view that the great amount of prophetic scriptures deal with the destruction of Jerusalem yet to come in 70 AD.

As opposed to a visible temple and physical Kingdom, His Kingdom is invisible and is in you. And it came at Pentecost, but was confirmed as God's only concern in 70 AD.

Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

It will be made manifest to all the souls of humanity after He returns.

Generally speaking, Preterism denies dispensationalism. It teaches that there are only two covenants of God's concern. Old Testament and New Testament. Partial preterists note that the New Testament refers to no other divisions besides Old Testament and New Testament.

Partial preterists propose that the entire 70 weeks of Daniel, as per Daniel 9:24-27, have been totally fulfilled in uninterrupted sequence. There is no gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

(That means that there is no future tribulation period of seven years or 3.5 years.)

The cross of Christ fulfilled all of the purposes that God listed in decreeing the purposes of the 70 weeks, as per Daniel 9:24.

Everyone, Jew or gentile, must come in through Acts 2:38, and that there will never be another way, nor a reinstatement of the law of Moses. Nothing but the blood of Jesus will save a soul for ever.

Simply put, partial preterism focuses on the REANIMATION of flesh, while full preterism focuses on the TRANSFORMATION from flesh. This is probably the most distinguishing difference between full preterism and all other futurist positions including that of partial preterism.

I do have a question for MF Blume; how do you see 1 Corinthians 15 as proof for a “true rapture”?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

So, why is it that you do not believe in the future events of a tribulation?

Because the 70 Weeks of daniel spoke of the Messiah being cut off after 69 weeks, and in the midst of the week the sacrifices would cease. Jesus preached exactly 3.5 years and then was cut off in death. And since He was the last sacrifice, His death caused the sacrifices to cease. This is what Hebrews 10 teaches. Sacrifices would CEASE to be offered when a perfect sacrifice was given. Jesus was that perfect sacrifice.

So to say the 70th week of Daniel is still future is incorrect. And that is where the futurists get the future tribulation period from.

They say antichrist causes the sacrifices to cease. That is incorrect. It is Jesus Christ.

Daniel said nothing about a gap in the 70 weeks. It would be silly to say something will be accomplished in a certain amount of time, and then turn around and insert thousands of years in the middle of that certain amount of time, anyway! This is what dispensationalists have done with the 70 weeks of Daniel. Daniel was told 6 things would occur in 70 weeks. And dispensationalists think there is a gap of 2000 years between the 69th and 70th weeks. I think that is ridiculous.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Simply put, partial preterism focuses on the REANIMATION of flesh, while full preterism focuses on the TRANSFORMATION from flesh. This is probably the most distinguishing difference between full preterism and all other futurist positions including that of partial preterism.

I do have a question for MF Blume; how do you see 1 Corinthians 15 as proof for a “true rapture”?

The kicker is Phil 3:21:

Philippians 3:21 KJV Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Whatever happened to his body will happen to our's.

Here is one study I made abvout 1 Cor 15. I have a few more.

In 1 Corinthians 15, the "Resurrection Chapter", Paul begins talking about the Gospel being death, burial and resurrection for more reasons than that simply because it happened! It is the basis for our understanding of our own resurrection! Paul did not talk about the death, burial, resurrection and another step about changing in clouds, as I knew one man to propose, as the origin where Jesus really got His spiritual body. There is nothing in the Bible that says His body changed in the clouds. The body we will receive is similar to the body Jesus had in his resurrection from the grave. So the Gospel issue is mentioned to introduce the point of our resurrections.

Paul is showing a pattern in Christ that we will experience in our resurrection. He does not mention the names of people who witnessed the resurrection just to show that Jesus arose. That is also part of the introduction to the point of the pattern of our resurrection. The Body Jesus had when he was seen by so many, is the body we will have when we are resurrected. Seeing no relevance of these first two points with the rest of the chapter's context concerning our resurrection, causes us to be offkey in our thoughts about what body we will have. We do not thereby see the contextual flow and pattern of thought in Paul's foundational notes of Christ's resurrection and his new body compared to our resurrections into which our bodies will be changed. Paul spoke so much about Jesus' "resurrected-from-the-grave" body, because that is the body we will have in the resurrection.

We must not leave all these former points in the early part of this chapter as disjointed from the entire context. Let us recognize and see the contextual flow and link of these first thoughts with the overall issue of our resurrection bodies. Paul spoke about more than the fact that Jesus is the resurrection. He said that the kind of body Jesus was raised with in resurrection is the same kind of body we shall have in our resurrection. To claim our resurrection bodies are "spiritual" in the sense of being unseen and non-physical, more like non-bodies than bodies, is error. However, they are termed "spiritual" bodies. But some make the mistake of thinking a spiritual body is not physical. Our resurrection is going to involve physical bodies as Jesus had when He was resurrected from the grave, not a so-called body he got only after going into the clouds. We shall follow Him in resurrection by getting a body like Jesus had in resurrection from the grave. Paul would not be talking about the body Jesus obtained when He came from the grave if we are not going to see our present physical bodies changed into those similar to such. We would not be reading these references in the first part of the chapter if our new bodies are not going to be like the one with which He arose from the grave. Paul would not relate our bodily resurrection to Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection in the manner in which he did if our bodies will not be like the body with whcih Jesus Christ resurrected.

We all agree Jesus rose from the dead, and so will we. However, we must not miss the point here in that Paul spoke of our resurrection that is going to be as His resurrection was when He came out of the grave with a body that could be touched and seen. All these verses at the first of the chapter are saying His resurrection Body is the body we shall have in our resurrection. Many teach that our resurrection bodies will not be like His Body from the Grave, but will be some sort of non-corporeal bodies. The fact is that the Spiritual Body of Jesus was the one with which He came from the grave. Our resurrection includes the same type of body Jesus had in His resurrection.

We must not fail to connect Paul's thoughts in speaking about Jesus' resurrection body to show what our resurrection bodies will be like. The reason Paul links the actuality of our resurrections with Jesus Christ's in a body that was seen by over 500 people, is because the spiritual body we shall receive in our resurrection is that same sort of body -- visible and tangible. The resurrection involves both the thought of rising and a body like Jesus had. If all that we will experience is Jesus' resurrection , but not getting the same sort of body with which He arose, but another body of some other strange characteristics, Paul would not have concentrated so much about that body that was seen by 500 people.

People who propose we will not resurrect physically agree Jesus did indeed resurrect. However, Paul connects Jesus' "raising up" with our resurrection, because Paul is going to speak later about our spiritual bodies. Our resurrection is inextricably linked to receiving changed bodies which are better called "spiritual bodies," as He links Jesus' resurrection with the sort of Body he rose with from the grave that was seen by over 500 people.

The reason Paul says our faith is in vain if Jesus is not raised up, as He was described in verses 4-8, is because our hope is resurrection in a new spiritual body, that is like His spiritual body that came out of the grave. We cannot cut off the issue of the body that was seen by 500 people with His Resurrection, and how that is the basis of the talks of our resurrection with a spiritual body later in the chapter. Some propose in essence that Paul only relates the fact that Jesus resurrected when he speaks of our resurrection later on. But the truth of the matter is that Paul speaks of Jesus' body that He received in His resurrection, and then speaks of our spiritual bodies we will get in our resurrections. We must not miss that link. It's a parallel experience we will have with Christ. Do not chop off the thought of the body Jesus came from the grave with, from His resurrection, and consider that body the same one that He was buried with, and then say it was unchanged. But Paul is saying that our changed bodies will be changed from earthly ones to the sort with which Jesus came from the grave. The body from the grave of Jesus is the spiritual body, because there was no blood in it, and it was enlivened by God's Spirit and supernatural life. That body had wounds in it that an earthly body could not have and live!

What part of us is asleep? Paul said something slept. What part slept? Spirit, soul or body? The fact is that the body sleeps, because Paul said elsewhere that the experience of being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. What happens to the body when something leaves it and is then present with the Lord? The body stays behind and is not with the Lord. It has to be! Otherwise, how can something leave the body and be present with the Lord if the BODY is present with the Lord as well? There is not absence from the body in that case. However, the body stays behind, while the spirit and soul go to be present with the Lord. And that same body that is left behind, laying and sleeping, will be changed and reunited to our souls and spirits in the resurrection. That body is changed to be like Jesus' body with no blood causing it to live, but supernatural power of God's Spirit quickening Him. Hence, it's a spiritual body.

Some propose that "THIS LIFE" in verse 19 refers to our earthly flesh. This is partly correct. This Life refers to the existence before our resurrections. It is the existence before we get spiritual bodies. Paul said we get spiritual bodies when we are resurrected. What body did Jesus receive when He resurrected? He received the one that was seen by 500 people. Paul said that our resurrection will occur when we receive our new bodies, because Jesus got His body in His resurrection. So, "this life" refers to existence before we receive new bodies in the resurrection, just as the body Jesus received in His resurrection.

Many do not see any correlation between the thoughts of Jesus' body from the grave with the thought of our bodies in the resurrection from our graves. Paul taught that our resurrections will follow the pattern of His resurrection. That is why Paul mentions the body He rose with so specifically, as well as coming from the dead.

[LadyChocolate]

Ok... here we go...

If the rapture takes place, and my car crashes into a tree and the tree falls but I am not there to hear it,...does it still make a noise?












sorry! couldn't stop myself!!!

[King's Child]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

Like Ferd, for the purposes of this thread, I do not believe in a Rapture.

For the sake of those reading, I do believe in the 2nd coming of Christ.
However, I do not believe I will see it in my lifetime. And to be more clear,
I do not believe that it will take place in the lifetime of my grandchildren.

Blessings

Why do you not believe it will take place in your or your grandchildren's lifetime?

[mfblume]

Like Ferd, for the purposes of this thread, I do not believe in a Rapture.

For the sake of those reading, I do believe in the 2nd coming of Christ.
However, I do not believe I will see it in my lifetime. And to be more clear,
I do not believe that it will take place in the lifetime of my grandchildren.

Blessings

Do you believe 1 Thess 4 speaks of a physical resurrection?

If so, the term RAPTURE is only the Latin version of "CAUGHT UP."

The reason I ask this is because some people believe in a rapture, but think Rapture is associated with a secret catching away so they do not use the term, when in reality it is not limited to that. If one believes one will be physically caught up, then one believes in a rapture without the "secret" aspect that pretrib teaching has added to the fray.