Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

So, give me a country that was NOT founded on your definition of "rebellion".

And a second bump for nico...

Most of the countries in the world were founded on some type of "rebellion".

Thus invalidating your point.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Acts 4:19
But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

Daniel 3:16-18
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. [17] If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. [18] But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Daniel 6:10
Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

Joshua 2:12-15
[12] Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the Lord, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father's house, and give me a true token: [13] And that ye will save alive my father, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death. [14] And the men answered her, Our life for yours, if ye utter not this our business. And it shall be, when the Lord hath given us the land, that we will deal kindly and truly with thee. [15] Then she let them down by a cord through the window: for her house was upon the town wall, and she dwelt upon the wall.

Exodus 13:17
And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

I Samuel 19:18
So David fled, and escaped, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt in Naioth.

I believe I have used the examples that you gave to me supporting “Rebellion” against man, and “God” blessed them for it. The difference between Saul and these men was they put the situation into Gods hand. Saul did what he wanted to do, he took it into his own hands, and the Lord took away his kingship because he trusted into himself. These other men and women didn’t bow to the world YET, they allowed God to give them the victory. Rebellion is Ill take it into my own hands, Rebellion is self will, if you stand fro truth, God will always take care of you. Rebellion your on your own.

Brother, you are (I think) making up your own definition of rebellion. You also are too willing to “add to, or diminish aught from” the words of God. That is what Saul was guilty of in the scripture passage that you quoted. This is what you do when you say drop the “as is” from the passage that says “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Nicodemus1968
Re: Can/Should Christians Be Democrats?
I Samuel 15:23
“For REBELLION is as the sin of WITCHCRAFT, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king”

You take out the “is as” and we can plainly see rebellion is witchcraft,

Saul rejected the word of GOD. The reason for his punishment, was “because” he ”rejected the word of God.” What was his rebellion? He rejected the word of God! This is what I’ve been trying to point out to you. Does it matter if you are in rebellion to God, or to man? Absolutely! The scripture you quote reinforces what I have been trying to tell you.

The Hebrew children, Daniel as well as the apostles in Acts 4 rebelled against governmental authority, in order to be obedient to GOD. You pretend that these acts were not rebellion to man. They in fact (by definition) are acts of rebellion. Allow me . . .

Merriam Webster
Definition of rebellion
1 : opposition to one in authority or dominance

I’m sorry your definition of rebellion is wrong. You seem to have your own definition, which is neither based on scripture or secular. You made it up. And you adjust scripture to fit your own new and improved definition.

As far as your “spiritual kingdom” doctrine is concerned. I agree that we are part of the kingdom and that the kingdom is spiritual. I also believe we live in a fleshly body. Have you eaten in the last two or three months? If you have, allow me to remind you that your spiritual being does not require Texas barbecue. That would be your physical body.

Which reminds me that I’m hungry.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother, you are (I think) making up your own definition of rebellion. You also are too willing to “add to, or diminish aught from” the words of God. That is what Saul was guilty of in the scripture passage that you quoted. This is what you do when you say drop the “as is” from the passage that says “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”.



Saul rejected the word of GOD. The reason for his punishment, was “because” he ”rejected the word of God.” What was his rebellion? He rejected the word of God! This is what I’ve been trying to point out to you. Does it matter if you are in rebellion to God, or to man? Absolutely! The scripture you quote reinforces what I have been trying to tell you.

The Hebrew children, Daniel as well as the apostles in Acts 4 rebelled against governmental authority, in order to be obedient to GOD. You pretend that these acts were not rebellion to man. They in fact (by definition) are acts of rebellion. Allow me . . .

Merriam Webster
Definition of rebellion
1 : opposition to one in authority or dominance

I’m sorry your definition of rebellion is wrong. You seem to have your own definition, which is neither based on scripture or secular. You made it up. And you adjust scripture to fit your own new and improved definition.

As far as your “spiritual kingdom” doctrine is concerned. I agree that we are part of the kingdom and that the kingdom is spiritual. I also believe we live in a fleshly body. Have you eaten in the last two or three months? If you have, allow me to remind you that your spiritual being does not require Texas barbecue. That would be your physical body.

Which reminds me that I’m hungry.

That’s all you have to say?!?
Lol!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Don’t take anything personal Esaias, I said “in your minds” because you and the others in this thread are saying Rebellion to man is ok, and if I understand this post you just posted then your saying Rebellion to man is good old fashioned obedience to God.. And if you feel that about me, that’s fine you can have your own opinion. I believe in the spirit realm so a lot of what I say will be thread with that, you don’t believe like i believe, in my mind that’s fine, well probably wont agree on much, yet that’s what discussion is built on. I understand what teats on a bull means, or you can even tell me “go milk a lama” i understand. Don’t take it personal, and you’ll be fine.

I said "in your mind... it's just good old fashioned obedience to God." In other words, rebellions that YOU approve of you don't classify as rebellion, you classify them as "obedience to God". Thus avoiding the fact that you actually support certain types of rebellion. You just conveniently don't call them that. Kind of a weak Jedi mindtrick, but oh well.

Everyone here "believes in the spirit realm", including me. We just disagree on what practical applications that has for people. In my opinion, you are operating with certain unbiblical and superstitious charismatic assumptions and definitions, which lead to essentially no practical applications that actually accomplish what the Bible says we are to be busy accomplishing.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

I Samuel 15:23
“For REBELLION is as the sin of WITCHCRAFT, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king”

You take out the “is as” and we can plainly see rebellion is witchcraft, pardon my being frank, doesn’t matter what we feel, if your in rebellion your in witchcraft. Now, Samuel said because you rejected the word of the lord. So, I believe there some in here that say Rebellion to God is wrong, Rebellion to man is justifiable! What got all this started, was because I said Rebellion is Rebellion, God doesn’t separate the two, cause it causes WITCHCRAFT no matter if its to God or Man! There are some of you using the Bible to justify Rebellion??? That has to throw up some red flags, Moses was justified by God for Rebelling Pharaoh? What about the disciples in Acts 5, they’re justified, what about the three Hebrew children, they’re justified, your trying to use biblical examples to justify your witchcraft, because REBELLION THE SIN OF WITCHCRAFT is the word of GOD! I understand there a lot here that don’t believe in the spirit realm, and I’m not trying to convince you to believe either, but the word that Samuel spoke are very direct and simple.

With that said,

James 3:9
“Therefore bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.”

Acts 9:5
“And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Matthew 25:45
“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.”

The way you treat others, your treating God. I’m taking to the church i.e the Bride of Christ, your held to a higher standard, and I’m not saying anything you all don’t already know. We don’t look for ways to “stand” for truth in order to contradict somebody.

You read about the rebellion of the 13 colonies under Britain Government, they rebelled against their authority, and from that rebellion came the United States. Read your history, there were preachers telling those god wants war, and such like, I’m sorry this isn’t the Old Testament now and it wasnt then, God doesn’t want war in the physical we are commanded to war in the spiritual. The United States was birthed because of their Rebellion against authority, you can disagree if you want that’s fine, and I will not try to convince you otherwise. Yet, the problems facing this country is from that rebellion, hear me “if America is destroyed it will be destroyed from within!” Rebellion destroys you from within, slow process devastating results.

Since you are being stubborn about it I guess you are in iniquity and idolatry, then?

[Nicodemus1968]

Few things to think on, Tithemister.

1- I wasn’t taking away “is as” when it’s italicized it’s know as a interpolation inserted from then translator for better clearification. You take the words they put in and it states “Rebellion the sin of Witchcraft”.

2- Acts 4 they were not dealing with the government, they were dealing with religious people.

3- Please explain to me, why the outcomes are different from Saul to the others.

4- Do you believe you can treat man one away and serve God the right way?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

And a second bump for nico...

Most of the countries in the world were founded on some type of "rebellion".

Thus invalidating your point.

My point is invalid because I haven’t answered your question?

Gods Country wasn’t founded on Rebellion. Lol!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Acts 4:19
But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

Daniel 3:16-18
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. [17] If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. [18] But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

Daniel 6:10
Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

Joshua 2:12-15
[12] Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the Lord, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father's house, and give me a true token: [13] And that ye will save alive my father, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death. [14] And the men answered her, Our life for yours, if ye utter not this our business. And it shall be, when the Lord hath given us the land, that we will deal kindly and truly with thee. [15] Then she let them down by a cord through the window: for her house was upon the town wall, and she dwelt upon the wall.

Exodus 13:17
And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

I Samuel 19:18
So David fled, and escaped, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt in Naioth.

I believe I have used the examples that you gave to me supporting “Rebellion” against man, and “God” blessed them for it. The difference between Saul and these men was they put the situation into Gods hand. Saul did what he wanted to do, he took it into his own hands, and the Lord took away his kingship because he trusted into himself. These other men and women didn’t bow to the world YET, they allowed God to give them the victory. Rebellion is Ill take it into my own hands, Rebellion is self will, if you stand fro truth, God will always take care of you. Rebellion your on your own.

"These men" (and one woman, oh and let's not forget the Hebrew midwives, either) refused to obey the orders of government authorities. Rahab in particular harbored foreign spies and gave aid and comfort to enemies of the state and switched her allegiance, making a deal with her country's enemies. Thus, she not only was in "rebellion" but was involved in high treason as well.

David had warrants for his arrest, but instead of turning himself in and having his day in court ('cause "the battle is the Lord's but the victory is ours") he ran to the hollers and had him an illegal militia running around with him. He engaged in unsanctioned espionage and covert black ops while scamming everyone into thinking he was mentally ill.

I could go on, but the fact is you have not a biblical understanding of authority. You were wrong about spiritual warfare, wrong about resurrection, and wrong about this. Thus, your opinions have no weight on these subjects. I suppose you can qualify for a participation trophy, though.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

"These men" (and one woman, oh and let's not forget the Hebrew midwives, either) refused to obey the orders of government authorities. Rahab in particular harbored foreign spies and gave aid and comfort to enemies of the state and switched her allegiance, making a deal with her country's enemies. Thus, she not only was in "rebellion" but was involved in high treason as well.

David had warrants for his arrest, but instead of turning himself in and having his day in court ('cause "the battle is the Lord's but the victory is ours") he ran to the hollers and had him an illegal militia running around with him. He engaged in unsanctioned espionage and covert black ops while scamming everyone into thinking he was mentally ill.

I could go on, but the fact is you have not a biblical understanding of authority. You were wrong about spiritual warfare, wrong about resurrection, and wrong about this. Thus, your opinions have no weight on these subjects. I suppose you can qualify for a participation trophy, though.

Esaias,
Do you feel better?
You say I don’t have a biblical understanding of authority, and I’m the one saying rebellion is wrong??? Your telling me rebellion to man is ok, and your trying to give biblical examples to explain that. If you want to believe that rebellion to man is ok have at it.

You don’t have to sound all bitter and angry. I’m giving you why I believe what I believe, this is my understanding. I guess you feel you have the right to tell me what I believe is wrong. Do you what you feel....

Like I said before, I’d like to have a civil discourse, and I was told, that’s what we’re here for. Apparently, the only civil discourse we can talk about is when people agree with the majority opinion. Well, that’s not how it rolls my friend.

I told you why I believe america was founded on rebellion, I don’t believe they followed the Holy Ghost to fight against their authority. When we follow our flesh it leads to rebellion, I was taught that by apostolic preachers. So, if your upset with me, go talk to D.C Moody, O.R Fauss, Wayne Bellew, I can give you a list to go on and on. These men taught me to following my flesh leads to rebellion. Now, anyone that would like to have a discussion, was the American Revolution of the Holy Ghost or man? Do you believe, the Holy Ghost instructed this men to kill their authority, because of being taxed????

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Few things to think on, Tithemister.

1- I wasn’t taking away “is as” when it’s italicized it’s know as a interpolation inserted from then translator for better clearification. You take the words they put in and it states “Rebellion the sin of Witchcraft”.

You are correct. The “as is” is in italics, which is added for clarification, which is fortunate, because clarification (or, as you would put it, clearification) is exactly what we are in need of. Saul’s rebellion was that he rejected the word of God. He didn’t rebel against man, he rebelled against God. Just trying to clearify for you.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

2- Acts 4 they were not dealing with the government, they were dealing with religious people.

I beg to differ with you on this point. The Jews were absolutely part of the government. The Sanhedrin was part of the government. The high priest was part of the government of the Jews. Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

3- Please explain to me, why the outcomes are different from Saul to the others.

Brother!!!! I HAVE explained it to you (about five times). The trouble is not that I haven’t explained it to you. The problem is that I cannot understand it for you. Read Acts 5

[29] Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Read, no study, this. It means that they had to make a choice. They could obey man, but to do so would be to rebel against God. On the other hand they could obey God, which would mean that they would be in rebellion to man. And yes, men that were in the Jewish government.

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

4- Do you believe you can treat man one away and serve God the right way?

Absolutely. Positively.

In some cases it is necessary. (Read number three.)