Tithing…Is it a command?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Flaming, Bro. Epley, UnTraditional... or anyone else who is in the pro-tithers camp...

In the setting of OT tithing, which we see discussed in Duet. 14, please comment on how the OT tithing system was taught by Paul to have undergone a change, and transformation in the NT (providing scripture please) and how that understanding translates into the tithing mandate that we have taught today?

For the record, here is the Deut. reference:
Duet. 14:22-29
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.

28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Even though most tithing teaching almost always originates from the OT, I have yet to have heard tithing taught in the setting of the OT (bringing your increase once every 3 years etc.)... most of the time the Malachi curse is used instead... and it would be interesting to hear where Paul taught on the change, and exactly how it changed from bringing tithes every 3 years to paying it off your gross income weekly.

I truly believe those in the pro-tithing camp are scared to admit that if the 10% tithing doctrine was tossed out the window in light of the more scriptural NT teaching of giving according as the Lord has blessed you (1 Cor. 16:1-2), the bottom line is that they are worried about where their next paycheck will come from, for if their people don't have a "mandate" to give, then they may not give at all. Could I be right?

I believe tithing is a good plan for the church. I didn't say it (in itself) is a heaven/hell issue, but how would you like to be a church secretary and not have any idea from week to week what income would come in. I bet you wouldn't want to work at a job where your pay is based on whatever comes in, but yet expect ministers of the gospel to run church operations, evangelize the community, and provide for their families with no projected income amount at all.

When you go to the bank to borrow money one of the requirements is proof of income. Tithing makes financial planning easier for the church and also the giver. If you have a prayerful and generous financial plan to give (personally I think tithing is the best method) it makes it easy for you to have a budget and also helps the church to have a budget. You are right I find no NT testament teaching to command it, but I find many scriptures to support it.

P.S. I believe when it comes to new converts you treat them like babes on milk, but when it comes to saints who have been in the church for years then tithing shouldn't be and issue. Those seasoned saints should have no problem supporting the church and giving systematically this is common sense. If you have entered hard times through no fault of your own I understand, but if you have been a poor steward with the blessings of God I think you might get in trouble with God.

[KeptByTheWord]

Good Samaritan: Church is not to be run as a business. We are talking about the kingdom of heaven, not the kingdoms of man. So all your reasoning above simply applies as to how you would logically run a business. And... you provided no scriptural basis either, I might add.

You might read up on this man by following link below... who certainly didn't follow logical business practices to do the Lord's will, and he left an incredible legacy behind him.

http://www.christianity.com/church/c...-11634869.html

[good samaritan]

=KeptByTheWord;1336769]Good Samaritan: Church is not to be run as a business. We are talking about the kingdom of heaven, not the kingdoms of man. So all your reasoning above simply applies as to how you would logically run a business.

Just for the record I don't teach tithing as a mandate and I don't teach a lot on financial giving although I may should more than what I do. As far as running the church building and operation like a business, I do. When the utilities come in I pay them, I advertise the church through flyers and business cards, and I try to plan things in advance. I do this in order to promote the heavenly kingdom in and outside of our local church building. God will move where I can't, but He doesn't expect for me to just sit by and wait for Him to do everything. Bro. Mueller had sometime expressed the needs of that orphanage in order for the community to reach out to it.

And... you provided no scriptural basis either, I might add.

Scriptural basis for what? I was not making a mandate you must tithe. I was simply suggesting a good system that works well. A system that is used in the OT which is a scriptural basis, but was set up in a totally different economy. An again I wasn't mandating it.

You might read up on this man by following link below... who certainly didn't follow logical business practices to do the Lord's will, and he left an incredible legacy behind him.

http://www.christianity.com/church/c...-11634869.html

Enjoyed the read and I don't disagree with the method. but I do believe I reserve the right to make suggestions and Paul too spoke by permission and not commandment. .

1 Cor.7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I

I see so many people trying to push on others to be the perfect example of how they believe the NT believers operated, but I don't see many people practicing what they preach.

Paul forsook all and went from place to place by the prompting of the Spirit, but do you?
The early church followers also sold everything they had and gave it to the collective church body, do you?

I never talk finances in a setting where sinners are present. I do teach straight from the scripture to born again believers when I feel like that is what God is prompting me to each on. I believe that teaching to be: weekly Spirit led giving as God has prospered. I bring tithes out as historically a good system and make my recommendations, but respect how others feel. In the end they will answer to God for whether or not they were led by His Spirit. It isn't for personal gain, but for the kingdom of God.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I am not saying that I would tell people to default on their mortgage in order to give to God. Most people that are in bad financial situations are because of management not because of having to give to God. I can say I personally believe that probably 90% of those who struggle financially it is management issues. People have to have all the luxuries possible and if they got it they may put a dollar in the pan.

houses nicer than they can afford- $500-600rent vs. $800-1200+
cars nicer than they can afford- $2500 or less vs. $10,000 or more
internet - doing without it vs. $50mo.
satellite T.V. - doing without it vs. $50mo.
smart phones - doing without it vs. $75mo. per line
vacations - doing without it vs. $2,000 annually

I know I'm meddling now, but really I don't know why we call people poor that are able to afford these things. When the Bible refers to the widows and the fatherless I don't picture them watching a big screen with 100+ channels, but they were actually facing malnutrition and starvation. We say we don't have anything to eat when we run out of the foods we like in the fridge. Many say they shouldn't give ten percent to God, but if you looked at their expenses each mo. you would find that they spend far more than ten percent on things they want that is not necessary.

Would you all agree that where your treasures are there is were your heart will be also. Maybe there is some situations where people are truly poor and can't afford to give, but most in this nation just aren't willing to get out of their comfort zones.

i'm with you. My point was the people that will charge gas and groceries onto their credit cards, be late on the bills they can't charge all because they've been taught that they're cursed if they don't tithe. I also agree that most people have put themselves in a situation, but there are those that get ill or laid-off. Over 50% of americans live paycheck to paycheck... that means half of us are one paycheck from disaster. Some of that is overspending and some of that is our economy. Getting behind or putting yourself in debt to keep the preacher happy is not the right approach.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I believe tithing is a good plan for the church. I didn't say it (in itself) is a heaven/hell issue, but how would you like to be a church secretary and not have any idea from week to week what income would come in. I bet you wouldn't want to work at a job where your pay is based on whatever comes in, but yet expect ministers of the gospel to run church operations, evangelize the community, and provide for their families with no projected income amount at all.

When you go to the bank to borrow money one of the requirements is proof of income. Tithing makes financial planning easier for the church and also the giver. If you have a prayerful and generous financial plan to give (personally I think tithing is the best method) it makes it easy for you to have a budget and also helps the church to have a budget.

You keep records and base financial decisions on past averages. The accountant can track peoples' giving for tax purposes, but if the Pastor doesn't know who specifically gives what, then they cannot ever show favoritism or be accused of such. I think I said it before on this thread that if 90% of what comes in goes towards salaries and bills, then the church isn't doing its job. I think half or more needs to be spend on outreach, clothing drives, donating to food banks, helping those in need, missionaries, etc. Some lending institutions want to know what kind of membership there is, but that could also be figured on a Sunday attendance average. Over time, numbers remain constant, grow (thank the Lord), or shrink (pray about what's wrong). What comes in won't change that much as people are creatures of habit.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by obriencp

i'm with you. My point was the people that will charge gas and groceries onto their credit cards, be late on the bills they can't charge all because they've been taught that they're cursed if they don't tithe. I also agree that most people have put themselves in a situation, but there are those that get ill or laid-off. Over 50% of americans live paycheck to paycheck... that means half of us are one paycheck from disaster. Some of that is overspending and some of that is our economy. Getting behind or putting yourself in debt to keep the preacher happy is not the right approach.

agreed. if you give it to make a man happy you have missed it.

Lk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts:for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by obriencp

You keep records and base financial decisions on past averages. The accountant can track peoples' giving for tax purposes, but if the Pastor doesn't know who specifically gives what, then they cannot ever show favoritism or be accused of such. I think I said it before on this thread that if 90% of what comes in goes towards salaries and bills, then the church isn't doing its job. I think half or more needs to be spend on outreach, clothing drives, donating to food banks, helping those in need, missionaries, etc. Some lending institutions want to know what kind of membership there is, but that could also be figured on a Sunday attendance average. Over time, numbers remain constant, grow (thank the Lord), or shrink (pray about what's wrong). What comes in won't change that much as people are creatures of habit.

I agree with you also on what church finances should go to, but unless the givers first give enough to cover its over head(which should be minimal) than I guess is it cannot give. That is why I am advocating generous systematic giving. It amazes me how so many think that if they have a need they should call their local church, but yet most of the time the great majority don't want to generously give into this storehouse in order for it be able to help anyone.

Preachers who even say the word tithes are labeled greedy, but most of the people calling them greedy look to them to reach out and give in the communities. I think there are people wrong on both sides. I just want to be numbered with those who are following God and letting his spirit lead my life.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Just for the record I don't teach tithing as a mandate and I don't teach a lot on financial giving although I may should more than what I do. As far as running the church building and operation like a business, I do. When the utilities come in I pay them, I advertise the church through flyers and business cards, and I try to plan things in advance. I do this in order to promote the heavenly kingdom in and outside of our local church building. God will move where I can't, but He doesn't expect for me to just sit by and wait for Him to do everything. Bro. Mueller had sometime expressed the needs of that orphanage in order for the community to reach out to it.

I know that from your posts, you appear to be teaching giving closer to the NT principle than most who believe in tithing. And I really respect that! We are to be good stewards, and being a good steward indeed means paying your bills, and certainly Jesus taught that what belongs to Cesar should be your responsibility to make sure that gets paid to Cesar.

But, what I meant by the church not being a business, is that business decisions are based on monetary success generally. The more money coming in, the better things are. And this is where the church does not operate like a business. The more money one pays in should not make them more "worthy" or of higher esteem, but we all know it does. The higher tithe payers get more recognition than those who don't have much to contribute. This is where running a church like a business goes off track. Those who make more, pay more, receive more recognition, and position. Those who make less, and have little to offer, are often shoved off to the side in the rush to take the church to the top of the numbers and dollar ladder.

For the record, I am not against using 10% as a measuring stick whereby you give. But a far better one, is to give as the Lord has blessed and prospered you. Maybe one week you have much more to give and are far able to surpass the 10%, but the following week you may not be able to give as much. This is why the 10% mandate should never have been instituted, but it was instituted to bring about a certain amount of income to the church coffers.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Scriptural basis for what? I was not making a mandate you must tithe. I was simply suggesting a good system that works well. A system that is used in the OT which is a scriptural basis, but was set up in a totally different economy. An again I wasn't mandating it.

There is no NT scriptural support for or against 10% tithing, because it wasn't even in the NT radar, and didn't happen until 300 years later with the Catholics. What the NT church understood was sacrificial giving, and this is where it should still be today. They knew that the tithing system, along with all the other offerings that went to the temple had ceased with the death and resurrection of Jesus, and now instead of various and sundry methods demanded for giving in the OT, they understood giving to be as the Lord had prospered you, to give first to one another, and then to the work of the Lord. Certainly, nowhere in the NT can you find ANYTHING close to the mandated 10% tithing structure taught today.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Enjoyed the read and I don't disagree with the method. but I do believe I reserve the right to make suggestions and Paul too spoke by permission and not commandment.

1 Cor.7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I

I see so many people trying to push on others to be the perfect example of how they believe the NT believers operated, but I don't see many people practicing what they preach.

Paul forsook all and went from place to place by the prompting of the Spirit, but do you?
The early church followers also sold everything they had and gave it to the collective church body, do you?

We are doing our best to live as closely to the NT model of church as we can. We meet in a home fellowship with elders as our leaders. We give to each other, and to other charities in our community as the Lord prospers us. We support and help family members, our fellow fellowship families, and other people who we know are struggling. We don't have a set percentage to give, but giving is a way of life for us. Giving is a blessing for us, we do it not because someone tells us we have to, but because we love the Lord enough to give to those in need as He has prospered us.

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I never talk finances in a setting where sinners are present. I do teach straight from the scripture to born again believers when I feel like that is what God is prompting me to each on. I believe that teaching to be: weekly Spirit led giving as God has prospered. I bring tithes out as historically a good system and make my recommendations, but respect how others feel. In the end they will answer to God for whether or not they were led by His Spirit. It isn't for personal gain, but for the kingdom of God.

I am so glad to hear that you teach giving as the Lord has prospered you. I do believe the Lord will bless your efforts in the kingdom by taking this step of faith. God Bless You and the work for His kingdom!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I am not saying that I would tell people to default on their mortgage in order to give to God. Most people that are in bad financial situations are because of management not because of having to give to God. I can say I personally believe that probably 90% of those who struggle financially it is management issues. People have to have all the luxuries possible and if they got it they may put a dollar in the pan.

houses nicer than they can afford- $500-600rent vs. $800-1200+(saints must live in the ghetto to satisfy preacher)
cars nicer than they can afford- $2500 or less vs. $10,000 or more (saints must drive a clunker to satisfy preacher)
internet - doing without it vs. $50mo.
(to satisfy peacher)
satellite T.V. - doing without it vs. $50mo.
(to satisfy preacher)
smart phones - doing without it vs. $75mo. per line(to satisfy preacher)
vacations - doing without it vs. $2,000 annually(to satisfy preacher)


Actually, I tried all of the brother. The pastor had these things but I didnt. Not to mention his personal sauna room, multiple real estate holdings. 100 acre estate, hunting cabin on 100 acres, Jaguar, etc. ....but we(thousands of struggling saints) gave their guts out and the GIGANTIC church is even in the family name!!!

I know I'm meddling now, but really I don't know why we call people poor that are able to afford these things. When the Bible refers to the widows and the fatherless I don't picture them watching a big screen with 100+ channels, but they were actually facing malnutrition and starvation. We say we don't have anything to eat when we run out of the foods we like in the fridge. Many say they shouldn't give ten percent to God, but if you looked at their expenses each mo. you would find that they spend far more than ten percent on things they want that is not necessary.


You absolutely are meddling...The church I described is UPC and the DREAM of all tithe teachers!!!

Would you all agree that where your treasures are there is were your heart will be also. Maybe there is some situations where people are truly poor and can't afford to give, but most in this nation just aren't willing to get out of their comfort zones.

That BIG church got ALL of our treasures, and almost nobody else prospered....I wont get duped again!!!!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by obriencp

Aquila's post is the answer to this snipped post from good samaritan. I fear too many have been taught to tithe for the wrong reasons and it is engraved in them. If they're tithing to get out of a financial mess, they're setting themselves up for failure. I say this because they're now relying on what their doing, the works of the law, to try to gain favor from the Lord. Hear me out, they can still pay their bills and give sacrificially (maybe less than 10%) while denying themselves of some of the common luxuries IE cell phone, cable tv, dry cleaning, dining out, whatever. However, if they give their tithes first and don't have money for their bills, they're bringing reproach upon themselves in the eyes of the lender. Yes to giving cheerfully, yes to giving sacrificially, but we are to take care of our families. If you default on a loan, you are a covenant breaker and have not lived up to the promise you made to pay that bill.

One preacher of one of our mega churches told the saints to try tithing on what you want to make(think of the implications).

What a joke....