The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

[peter83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Can you obey the commandment against murder by not hating your neighbor in your heart, while still actually killing them?

Or does obeying the commandments include actually doing what it actually says to do?

cAn you obey the comadment of not adultery while yoy giving her divorce and remarried?
I obey the Sabbath: (struggling)
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
do you cease from your fleshy works?
One is sin and other all carnal worldly works...are you really resting? or you are still searching to rest on your bed ones a week?

[peter83]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Since we're repeating things a bit, then I will, too. The 4th commandment is the only said to be a shadow of Christ, of the 10. So, we keep the body and the shadow is fulfilled.

Look this one ,you will like

Hebr.4:9 "ἄρα 9 - So then
apoleipetai ἀπολείπεται -there remains
sabbatismos σαββατισμὸς- a Sabbath rest
tō τῷ- for the
laō λαῷ -people
tou τοῦ
Theou Θεοῦ -of God"
and then he explains how we enter from now in his rest by ceased from our works..

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Two points: 1, the folks who believed in "real presence" are the folks who tried to stamp out Oneness, Jesus name baptism, and sabbath keeping. 2, Acts 15 only mentions 4 things, therefore we are not obligated to do anything else? I've gone over that many times before so I won't belabour it.

The four items listed in acts have one huge common denominator because the issue was dealing with things from law that the church ought to abide by. Sabbath was not mentioned when it should have, otherwise.


I used real presence as an example that there's things that people believed in the New Testament age in the early centuries that are not meant to be kept just because they did. I don't see Paul ever teaching to keep the Sabbath day. I go by the Bible. And col 2 and gal 4 days it all. You should be seeing this knowing your Astuteness... It boggles me.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by peter83

Look this one ,you will like

Hebr.4:9 "ἄρα 9 - So then
apoleipetai ἀπολείπεται -there remains
sabbatismos σαββατισμὸς- a Sabbath rest
tō τῷ- for the
laō λαῷ -people
tou τοῦ
Theou Θεοῦ -of God"
and then he explains how we enter from now in his rest by ceased from our works..

Exactly.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The four items listed in acts have one huge common denominator because the issue was dealing with things from law that the church ought to abide by. Sabbath was not mentioned when it should have, otherwise.


I used real presence as an example that there's things that people believed in the New Testament age in the early centuries that are not meant to be kept just because they did. I don't see Paul ever teaching to keep the Sabbath day. I go by the Bible. And col 2 and gal 4 days it all. You should be seeing this knowing your Astuteness... It boggles me.

Sabbath actually WAS mentioned in that Acts 15 discussion. Besides, the rationale that says the four things excludes Sabbath because not mentioned applies to everything and anything besides those four things.

Real presence was not taught in the first century among Christians.

Paul kept the Sabbath, and told everyone to follow his example in how to live as a Christian. Paul explicitly affirmed we are to keep the Feast of Passover/Unleavened Bread.

You say you are amazed I can't see what you see. I am likewise amazed you cannot see what I see. To me, it's literally a no brainer, it's as obvious as "thou shalt not steal", it's so plain and spelled out I literally do not understand the non Sabbath keeper's thought process. I mean this seriously and sincerely. I wasn't raised as a Christian, much less a Sabbath keeper. I discovered it from reading the Bible. I studied it, as much I've studied the Oneness vs trinity debate, new birth, and other major doctrinal issues. I never had some traditional pro Sabbath bias in my studies. But the more I studied, the clearer and more obvious it became.

I have literally found multiple independent lines of reasoning that support Sabbath keeping. From the pure Biblical data, the united voice of church history, the connection between the introduction of Sunday based worship and the sun worship of Mithra, Sol Invictus, and Baal, to what is clear to me in the lack of cohesiveness and rationality and Biblical consistency in antisabbatarian lines of argument... I mean I literally can't wrap my head around why any Bible believing Christian would NOT be a Sabbath keeper.

So where to go from there? I guess we just wind up repeating ourselves, having reached an impasse?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by peter83

cAn you obey the comadment of not adultery while yoy giving her divorce and remarried?
I obey the Sabbath: (struggling)
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
do you cease from your fleshy works?
One is sin and other all carnal worldly works...are you really resting? or you are still searching to rest on your bed ones a week?

Keeping Sabbath never did and does not mean the Sabbath keeper trusts in his own works and instead just naps in bed one day a week.

If you don't divorce and remarry, but you keep a mistress on the side, you are committing adultery.

Just as if you "rest from your fleshly works" but you work on the Sabbath and do not keep it holy, you are not keeping the Sabbath.

The Pharisees were rebuked by Jesus for devising spiritual sounding reasons to NOT actually do what the commandments say to do. Therefore, when Jesus gives the true depth of a commandment, He does NOT mean "therefore you can ignore the actual literal thing that is commanded."

If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isaiah:58:13

Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isaiah:58:14

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isaiah:66:22

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isaiah:66:23

Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Isaiah:56:1

Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Isaiah:56:2

Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
Isaiah:56:3

For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isaiah:56:4

Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isaiah:56:5

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isaiah:56:6

Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Isaiah:56:7

The Lord GOD, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Isaiah:56:8

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Sabbath actually WAS mentioned in that Acts 15 discussion. Besides, the rationale that says the four things excludes Sabbath because not mentioned applies to everything and anything besides those four things.

Real presence was not taught in the first century among Christians.

Paul kept the Sabbath, and told everyone to follow his example in how to live as a Christian. Paul explicitly affirmed we are to keep the Feast of Passover/Unleavened Bread.

You say you are amazed I can't see what you see. I am likewise amazed you cannot see what I see. To me, it's literally a no brainer, it's as obvious as "thou shalt not steal", it's so plain and spelled out I literally do not understand the non Sabbath keeper's thought process. I mean this seriously and sincerely. I wasn't raised as a Christian, much less a Sabbath keeper. I discovered it from reading the Bible. I studied it, as much I've studied the Oneness vs trinity debate, new birth, and other major doctrinal issues. I never had some traditional pro Sabbath bias in my studies. But the more I studied, the clearer and more obvious it became.

I have literally found multiple independent lines of reasoning that support Sabbath keeping. From the pure Biblical data, the united voice of church history, the connection between the introduction of Sunday based worship and the sun worship of Mithra, Sol Invictus, and Baal, to what is clear to me in the lack of cohesiveness and rationality and Biblical consistency in antisabbatarian lines of argument... I mean I literally can't wrap my head around why any Bible believing Christian would NOT be a Sabbath keeper.

So where to go from there? I guess we just wind up repeating ourselves, having reached an impasse?

The law and the Sabbath were mentioned in that chapter of Acts were Gentiles were instructed what and what not to keep from the law. Sabbath was not listed among those items. And the only reason that mentions Sabbath is because it said that there were people teaching on the Sabbath day and their four letters had to be sent to instruct the Gentiles.

The common understanding I always saw in that chapter is that they better get these letters out there because the Gentiles are otherwise going to continually hear the law in those synagogues all those Sabbath days. Paul only did Sabbath because he was reaching Jews,... he wasn't attending synagogues for his own sake. Where else are you going to speak to a bunch of Jews whose minds are on God and they're all gathered in one place, than in a synagogue on the Sabbath day?

You're right about just repeating ourselves, because I already addressed the fact of what Paul was referring to when he said let us keep the passover. He was talking about us being the bread and not being Leavened bread that you have on a literal Passover. Our whole lives are too be unleavened bread, so to speak, if we walk in the spirit. He said nothing about keeping the actual Passover day, but keeping what Passover foreshadowed about lives lived without sin.

And your views about Galatians chapter 4 and what the elements of the world were, I'm not based on you just reading the Bible, because you keep referring to what modern Scholars keep saying about pagan calendar. I just read the chapter on my own, and then I noticed people like Adam Clark and Albert Barnes were saying the exact same thing I was after I read it and studied. So whatever you think about Galatians chapter 4 you did not get that on your own by your own admission are referring to all these different Scholars.

[mfblume]

Why did you never answer my response to you about your claim that Moses told the Israelites, who refused to refrain from picking up Manna on the Sabbath, they always disobeyed as though they know about sabbath before that event? I proved through scripture showing that they had never heard of not working on the Sabbath until Moses directed them about the Manna. He was not referring to years earlier when they kept violating, but he was referring to mere verses earlier.

Show me one statement in the New Testament that directs new covenant people to rest the seventh day. Just one.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The law and the Sabbath were mentioned in that chapter of Acts were Gentiles were instructed what and what not to keep from the law. Sabbath was not listed among those items. And the only reason that mentions Sabbath is because it said that there were people teaching on the Sabbath day and their four letters had to be sent to instruct the Gentiles.

The common understanding I always saw in that chapter is that they better get these letters out there because the Gentiles are otherwise going to continually hear the law in those synagogues all those Sabbath days. Paul only did Sabbath because he was reaching Jews,... he wasn't attending synagogues for his own sake. Where else are you going to speak to a bunch of Jews whose minds are on God and they're all gathered in one place, than in a synagogue on the Sabbath day?

You're right about just repeating ourselves, because I already addressed the fact of what Paul was referring to when he said let us keep the passover. He was talking about us being the bread and not being Leavened bread that you have on a literal Passover. Our whole lives are too be unleavened bread, so to speak, if we walk in the spirit. He said nothing about keeping the actual Passover day, but keeping what Passover foreshadowed about lives lived without sin.

And your views about Galatians chapter 4 and what the elements of the world were, I'm not based on you just reading the Bible, because you keep referring to what modern Scholars keep saying about pagan calendar. I just read the chapter on my own, and then I noticed people like Adam Clark and Albert Barnes were saying the exact same thing I was after I read it and studied. So whatever you think about Galatians chapter 4 you did not get that on your own by your own admission are referring to all these different Scholars.

My original thought on reading Galatians was that Paul was dealing with a scismatic Jewish or pagan liturgical calendar, because he says they worshipped that which was NOT god and are RETURNING to that worship of the elements of the world. Furtger research on my part into the phrase "elements of the world" as well as the historical contexts of what Paul was dealing with have simply corroborated what I already saw. Now, in regard to Colossians, that is a different ball of wax because previously I thought Paul was dealing (once again) with a schismatic Judaism. I have however been studying extensively into Colossians and have concluded we were both wrong about what Paul was dealing with.

So I'm not sure where you were trying to go with that.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Why did you never answer my response to you about your claim that Moses told the Israelites, who refused to refrain from picking up Manna on the Sabbath, they always disobeyed as though they know about sabbath before that event? I proved through scripture showing that they had never heard of not working on the Sabbath until Moses directed them about the Manna. He was not referring to years earlier when they kept violating, but he was referring to mere verses earlier.

Was the seventh day holy before the Exodus? Or was it invented by Moses? It was holy even before the Fall of Adam. Israel was TAUGHT all the commandments of God. They had lapsed into idolatry which was why they were in Egyptian bondage to begin with. Their history is a repeated ad nauseum case study in refusing to obey. Including the fourth commandment. Which by the way says REMEMBER the Sabbath day. Meanwhile Genesis identifies the Sabbath being made holy on the 7th Day of the creation week. So, again, not sure where you are going with this.

Show me one statement in the New Testament that directs new covenant people to rest the seventh day. Just one.

Show me one statement in the New Testament that directs anybody to abstain from bestiality. Just one.

I said it many times before and I will say it again. You and I begin with two very different approaches to the Bible. You like many today think of the New Testament writings as a sort of replacement torah, and the old testament writings as repealed legislation. Good for Sunday school stories and drawing out some general principles and patterns and so forth, but generally not obligatory.

I on the other hand approach the Bible differently. The old testament is the Word of God, and the new testament is inspired authoritative apostolic commentary and interpretation of those old testament scriptures. Man shall live by every word of God (old testament scripture as explained by the new testament scripture).

Your approach seems to be "all is repealed unless repeated in the new testament writings." Mine is more like "all stands unless explicitly repealed in the new testament writings."