Can Women Pastor ?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

whether he was oneness or whatever he still knew what was happening in his day much more than we do...
I have no problem with my husband being the head...I think Godly women all know who is the head...I do not do any church work without his bidding and covering...

Why would it even matter to you that I teach men if needed the way to heaven?

I am speaking in just a few minutes at a church I started and was the first pastor some 27 or so years ago...

They have cooked a special meal for us...I am sure they are grateful that a woman not only came to them but the church building I built with my own hands...they will be forever grateful...

Where was Brother Alvear during this time? In another little city starting the church our son pastor's today....

We work together, rejoice together...and someday will spend eternity together in the presence of the Lord...

So I suppose we'll just throw I Tim. 2:11-15/I Cor. 14:34 out the window? Hmmm, strange that some don't do this w/ Paul's teachings on faith. It's selectivity. As for me & my house, we'll obey the plain teachings of the Scriptures.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

He will not accept truth...I have decided it is a waste of time.

Wrong, I do "accept truth", such as "I do NOT ALLOW A WOMAN TO TEACH, OR TO EXCERCISE AUTHORITY OVER A MAN. SHE IS TO REMAIN SILENT." Whi in their right mind would read these instructions to the church & say, "Oh, God calls women to preach!?!?" I think we need to redefine "truth".

..anyone that reads the BIBLE Knows that Jesus went against the norms of His day by blessing children, letting women be his disciples, and even calling a woman a daughter of Abraham...unheard of in the days of Jesus.
If it would not have been for women not even the life of Moses would have been saved...to downplay the work of women especially in this dispensation is to undo the work of Calvary....

Not hardly. Which of these women delivered sermons to men from the Scriptures:__________? Been waiting for someone to fill in this blank for months now.

Until then only certain men could be priests today we are all considered priests..and we will reign (rule) with HIM...not just men but women too...

Of course women will be saved [i.e., "priests ruling w/ Him"], who ever said otherwise? But still waiting for the Biblical example of a woman "preaching in, or to, the church":__________?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

. I Corinthians 14:31-35

T
his Scripture at a glance seems so severe and final. It seems the Apostle leaves no variance. It seems to contradict the rest of the scriptures but as any Bible scholar knows scripture will interpret itself. No doctrine can be based on one scripture alone -such as baptizing for the dead (I Corinthians 15:29). The Bible speaks that for the truth to be established, it must have two or three witnesses.

The Bible only mentions "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together" once. So, should we now discard going to church based upon this supposed "must have 2 or 3 witnesses" hypothesis? The Bible NEVER says "must" have 2 or 3 witnesses. To the contrary, "A-L-L Scripture is...profitavle for doctrine."

The bottom line is that God is looking for willing vessels independent of gender or color of skin. It is recorded in the Bible that God in times past used not only women, but also children and even animals to fulfill His divine purpose.

So now we're employing "animals" to support our doctrines?? I'd say it's time to reconsider our position entirely if this is the case!

Let me say, I’m not promoting a masculine woman. A woman should look like a woman, dress like a woman, and act like a woman. There is nothing as repulsive as a woman who has manly mannerisms. On the other hand, even more detestable is a man who is feminine.
There is nothing more graceful to the eyes as a woman who is feminine or a man who is a real gentleman. Some struggle with the concept of women preachers, as Trinitarians struggle with the oneness of God. Their fundamental problem is in understanding the dual nature of Jesus. Likewise, we need to understand the dual responsibilities of a woman preacher.

Theology, textual evidence please:__________? Your [or pasted comments] presupposes women preachres from the outset...which the very Scripture in question disallows! Amazing.....


Most women have domestic responsibilities as well as spiritual responsibilities. Genesis 1:28, “And God said unto them be fruitful. And multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. And have dominion.” God said they (both) shall have dominion. In other words, God’s original thinking or plan (before the fall) for man and woman, masculine and feminine, was to have authority and dominion together. God did not tell Adam he was to have exclusive dominion, neither did He tell him he was to govern alone. God said that they were to have dominion.

Were Adam & Eve "preachers of the Gospel"?? I deal w/ this in my critique of Scheel's book. Easily shown illogical, not to mention a direct violation of I Cor. 11.

That helps us understand I Timothy 2:12 that says suffer not a woman to teach, or take for oneself, grab, take illegally, usurp (define) authority over the man (The man is her husband).

Eisegesis alert! What text of I Tim. 2 translates this word as "Husband"??? Are we free to just make things up as we go along??


The apostle did not say she shouldn’t have dominion because he knew that in the original plan of God, when man and woman had just come from the Hands of the creator, they both were given dominion. The apostle was not objecting that a woman have dominion but that she could not have dominion over her husband-plain and simple.

Not "plain & simple" at all...particulary when absolutely NO text states this!

In God’s original plan, it was wrong for a man to have dominion over a woman. Neither did a woman have dominion over a man. Togetherness and sameness was God’s original concept. This is the perfect plan between the sexes -- more perfect than the Law of Moses that came later.
Note that the Pharisees asked Jesus, if under the Law of Moses it was right to divorce the wife for any reason. Note the response that was given them. “Have you not read from the beginning when God created man and women?” Also note in I Corinthians 14:5-6 “For this cause shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife and they twain shall be one flesh. Wherefore there are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” Jesus took them back to the garden of Eden but the Pharisees did not like it and they took him back to the law of Moses. The Law of Moses was what they lived by, but Jesus was trying to get them to go back before the law of Moses the better and more perfect plan. The reason that Moses made a letter of divorce to put away the wife was “because of the hardness of your hearts he suffered you to put away your wives; but from the beginning it was not so.”
The original plan of God example, “in the garden of Eden” was a better and more perfect plan-the plan before sin. The law of Moses placed certain restrictions upon women.
We all know and admit this. We know a law that’s higher and a concept that is better. We know a plan that is more idealistic than the Law of Moses that it the original condition of things in the Garden of Eden. God gave the man and the woman dominion in conjunction together (Genesis 1:28). This is a better concept and more sublime than the Law of Moses. Someone said that Adam’s wife came from the rib out of his side. If she was made from his head someone could say that she is the head.
She did not come from his feet, so that she could be, stomped on, but came from his side which represents that they have been equally valued. That was God’s original plan. We know that a horrible thing happened in Gen:3 that destroyed God’s ideal, or necessitated a change from the original plan.
Sin thwarted God’s concept of the man and woman’s continuity in the garden. Unto the woman he said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. After the fall not before the fall God told the woman, “Your husband shall have rule over thee.” He did not rule before the fall. It was a punishment from God because the woman yielded to temptation and ate the fruit.
But remember this was not God’s original plan. This was a part of the penalty of sin. If it was sin, (and it was) that caused the women to be ruled by man, since then the redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ not only redeemed, but also all the consequences that resulted by sin.
The redemption that is in Christ Jesus took all the disadvantages pronounced upon the woman in the Garden of Eden. The redemption of Christ not only paid sin’s consequences at Calvary but transcends to future women. We who participate in redemption today can enjoy and inherit what was lost in Mother Eve.

As usual, all theology & no textual interaction w/ I Tim. 2:11-15, other than to try & explain away the natural ramifications of the passage.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

The women in the Old Testament had a tremendous disadvantage. As we continue to read God’s Word, we can slowly see the dignity of the woman being restored. Even with the devil furiously fighting against her, there were occasions when she rose above her disadvantages showing a marvelous manifestation of courage and, on several occasions exercising notable ministries.
We may want to hide from these stories. They are sometimes unpleasant in the extreme. They raise issues we may wish to avoid or deny. Yet they are stories of the lives of women who lived as we live in an abusive, even hostile world. We will study stories that speak the truth bringing the light of day into a darkened world, uncovering sins - that permeated lives.
The Bible tells about women used in leadership and their proclamation of faith. There have always been women who transcended the boundaries that their society placed upon them. There have always been women whose faith motivated them to acts of courage and to powerful ministries that made them known and felt. These stories teach us undeniable truth.
Women can be and should be effective servants of God in every spiritual dimension. Women of the Old Testament faith were preachers, proclaimers, wealthy and powerful supporters, prophetesses, military heroes and judges.
These ancient women of faith were average people with normal lives who found ways to serve God in every facet of their lives. We need to shake aside the shackles of bureaucratic structures which chain the tongues of over half the Christian believers.
The problem that women preachers face today is not the lack of God’s call but traditions which men have developed that resist her call. Eternity alone will reveal the extent of the influence of women whose spirit came to rejoice in God their Savior and who, having discovered the well of life, left their waterpots to go and tell of the gospel story.
When Jesus entered upon His earthly ministry, women intently responded to His teachings, sympathized with Him in His darkest hours and found in Him their benefactor and friend. Women were the last to leave the cross, first at the tomb on Christ’s resurrection day, and the first to proclaim the glorious news of His victory over the grave.
In the annals of the early church, women are likewise notable for their spiritual devotion, fidelity, in teaching the Word of God, and sacrificial support of God’s servants. Their faith and prayers were mingled with those of the apostles in preparation for Pentecost and through out Christian era. The church owes more than it realizes to the prayers, loyalty and gifts of its female members. From the time when women labored with Paul in the gospel (Philippians 4:3), religious leaders have been dependent upon the miniseries of women. Gifted and consecrated women figure prominently in the labors of Paul. Owing much to the Redeemer for her spiritual freedom and ennoblement, woman has endeavored to pay her debt in unreserved devotion to Him who was born of a woman.
Bible women form the most remarkable portrait gallery of women preachers in existence. Many of them are among the immortals, whose records shine brightly for us in God’s biography of humanity.
One of the reasons that religious leaders were against Jesus was that He did not accept the Jewish traditions that were accepted by almost everyone else. For example, Jesus healed on the Sabbath, dined with sinners, talked with women who were not of the Jewish race. He not only talked with them, but taught them - something unheard of in His day. Jesus sent His disciples to gather corn on the Sabbath (Mark 2:3-28). He healed on the Sabbath; He broke many of their rules proving that traditions of men are not the laws of God!
Christ seemly considered Himself Lord of “traditions”. Whenever tradition hinders or prevents the work of Christ, it is necessary to dismiss that tradition.
Paul taught the Galatians freedom and liberty in the Spirit. In Christ there is no racial or ethnic superiority. No culture or class superiority, no gender superiority (Galatians 3:28). Paul taught the gifts are for all (I Corinthians 12:27-28; II Corinthians 5:20).
Women like men can pray and prophesy in the congregation. By prophesying, Paul meant intelligible preaching that built up the faith of the church.
When tradition hinders or prevents the work of Christ, it is necessary to alter that tradition. The perpetuation of a tradition that no longer serves humanity but dictates to how one should do something then thwarts the purposes of God’s church. It is then the tradition is in conflict with the will of God.

Again, very little textual interaction, but just theology. I could sit & show the error of each statement, but simply do not have the time to waste.

I've given the lexical definition of "prophecy" repeatedly, & yet ya'll just keep screaming "It means preach!!!" Sorry, Paul had already explicitly forbade that practice by women in the church. I have shown over & over that prophecy is NOT a sermon from the Scriptures, but rather the spontaneous/supernatural moving of God's Spirit upon an individual, as demonstrated ad nauseum in the Biblical record. To this [& sooooo much more], you just keep saying, "It means preach!!!"????? Sorry, I'll believe the Bible over one's theology anyday.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

L
et’s return to I Corinthians 14:34-35. “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

(I Timothy 2:8-15) “I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.” Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

Throughout the Bible there are evidences of women teaching and leading. Deborah as prophetess taught as well as led. Miriam was a leader. Paul spoke of women co-laborers, deacons and Apostles. Certainly they taught.

Where does the literal text state, "Certainly they taught":__________? Man, you guys just fall for anything that anyone says that agrees w/ your position, regardless of what the Bible explicitly says. It's mind-boggling how someone can actually quote the verse that explicitly says, "I do not allow a woman to teach...", then say just the opposite of what the Bible says!?!?!?!?!?

Their offices and titles show proof that certain women were used in the gifts of the spirit (I Corinthians 11:5; Acts 21:9)...”Teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Colossians 3:16). Did you notice singing is also a teaching ministry? O consistency thou art a jewel!

Not sooooo fast Bro. Scheel, is singing now classified as "preaching sermons"??????????? Talk about theological hula-hoops. So much for that "consistency"!

I Corinthians 14:34-35 was written in the New Testament. The New Testament refers to an end of the old way and living a new way. It was a better dispensation. Could these verses mean she is in a worse situation than before in the Old Testament?

Under the Old Testament law, she could rise above her situation or disadvantage and prophesy, judge Israel, instruct kings, save nations. If she could do this under the law then under the New Testament she should be able to do more. One thing for certain says the book of Hebrews we live in a better day. If we take these two verses alone by themselves, I would say we do not live in a better era. It’s no good for the women just to sit in silence.
The woman shall not read the Bible. (In other words she shall not read her Bible in church). It is better to burn the law (Bible) than to permit it to be taught by a woman. The testimony of one hundred women is not equal to the testimony of one man.

The jury only applies to men. The body of a man can be carried through the streets for burial, but you need not worry about a woman’s body. A woman cannot be counted to make up a Jewish congregation (nine men and one woman is not enough.) A woman should not speak among men. Where did these laws and biased opinions come from? The Jewish Talmud!

It surely did not come from the Bible! The Jewish Talmud is the Jewish commentary of the Law of Moses. All traditions as well as many others came from the Talmud. The Jewish Talmud was in existence when our Lord Jesus was upon earth. Jesus knew all about “their” Talmud and that the Jews considered observing the Talmud as a vital part of life.

Ahh yes, the ol' familiar "Talmud" hypothesis. Problem is, the Talmud was written before "the church" as the text of I Cor. was addressed to. Not to mention that there's absolutely NO refernce to the Talmud here. Again, just make things up as we go along I suppose!

The Rabbis had passed the Talmud on from generation to generation. The people accepted the Talmud like a Bible. To them it was a law meant to be obeyed. Notice when our Lord Jesus came to earth He did not conform His life or ministry to the Talmudic Laws. It seems He even had a radical opinion when it came to women.

Notice John 4:27: And upon this came his disciples, and marveled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? Or, why talkest thou with her? The disciples marveled because he was talking to a woman, not because she was a bad woman, just because she was a woman.

Perhaps they marveled also just because he was talking to a woman, since in times of Christ no Jewish rabbi would take out time to speak with a woman. To them all women were insignificant. Women were only to bear children and to take care of their husbands. Religiously speaking she was taught that a woman was inferior and subordinate.

Still waiting on the biblical example of a woman expositor of the Scriptures:__________? All of this theology is simply a waste of time, since most of it is not stated in the actual text.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

And so with the women, in fact nor "to usurp authority over the man" does occur in the original. But even so, it is no problem either way because usurp meant "to take someone else’s power, position, job when you do not have the right to." I do not believe any godly woman tries to do this.

I Corinthians 14 and I Timothy contain no reference to women sent out to preach the gospel by the call of God’s Spirit. Let us continue to study what law Paul was citing from.

The very reason the Holy Ghost was given was to equip us with power to be witnesses. In Acts 2 when the Holy Ghost fell from heaven the very first time, it fell upon both men and women (Acts 1:14-15).

If women were to be in silence in the church as some say, then they could not receive the Holy Ghost. For one must speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. So in Acts 2, we have both men and women speaking in tongues. Paul could not have been quoting from Biblical Law in First Corinthians 14:34.

Some will say if the apostle quoted it, he endorsed it. Paul quoted not to endorse it, but to rebuke it, to reject it, to deny its authority on a Biblical basis. It was not a command to the church and not a law to be obeyed by Christian women.

Notice what he said in verses 35 and 36. This is the language of Judaizers at Corinth. Paul answered back in the words; "What? Came the word of God out from you? Or came it unto you only?" In other words, I did not teach you this. What I write are commandments (NOT THE TALMUD). Paul taught that a woman could pray out loud, could prophecy, and could preach.

We must comprehend the background of the New Testament Church that was mixed with Jews and Gentiles. Even the converted Jews still observed the Talmud. They believed it was inspired scripture and fought against Paul. The greatest battle of Paul’s ministry was fighting against the Judaizers. They were "a thorn in the flesh" to Paul. He fought against them in every church established. This doctrine had come into the Corinth church and they were teaching something Paul had not taught them. For this reason, he said the word of God came not out from you but to you. In others words, I don’t bring this doctrine.

We must understand the problems at Corinth concerning the Talmud that Paul was trying to solve. The Jews continued believing the Talmud and still believe in it today! But the Talmud was not inspired, not in the days of Paul nor in our day; and never was! It was purely a commentary on what they thought the Torah said.

These attitudes from Judaism passed into Christianity. On other occasions, these Judaizers questioned Paul’s right to be an apostle. They said only the twelve were apostles; Paul was not included. They also did not like Paul’s stand on women preachers (I Corinthians 9:1-6).

Paul had to defend his right to be an apostle. They were teaching things Moses did not teach. I Corinthians 9:1-3 and I Corinthians 5:9, show it was a letter. Remember Paul withstood Peter on occasion because Peter wanted to put women back under the law. In I Corinthians 15, Paul gave a list to prove the resurrection of Jesus. In the list, he did not mention a woman. Why? He could not; their feelings were so strong against that in the church at Corinth, and so implanted in them were the laws of the Talmud, he could not mention a woman.

What a shame when it was the women who first discovered that Christ had risen. It was to the women that Jesus had said, "Go and tell that I have risen."

No matter how good a preacher you are you are only repeating a story that Jesus told the women to tell. For if it would not have been for His resurrection, His victory over death, hell, and the grave, we could not be where we are today. That is the core of the gospel. So put your guns aside, beat your swords into plowshares and your spears into pruning hooks, and let’s get on with evangelizing the world.

Do not be guilty of setting yourself up as God - deciding whose mouth to open or close. Don’t let the resurrection message that we must carry to the Four Corners of the world get diluted with sour feelings over who takes the message to the lost.

While preachers spend enormous energy debating and deciding who will be the one to carry the gospel, the devil laughs and continues working full speed ahead toward his purpose, and if we are not careful, we’ll help him do it!

Why crush the tongue that could tell a liberating message to captives? Do you realize God’s people that is, God’s messengers carry the only light left for this dark, sinful world? Why try to snuff out a part of it?

We have the only lasting hope, the only real miracle, the only eternal promise, and yet some of our methods resemble India’s Castle System.

It was the Pharisees that always stood on their feet. They muttered and ground that truth belonged to them only and they only had a right to spread it. They pulled their long self-righteous, cloaks around them and condemned the innocent. But did you notice Jesus never condemned - except those that condemned?

Scheel's repeated refernce to the Talmud & OT has absolutely nothing to do w/ what the actual texts say about women preachers. NOt to mention that NONE of his assertions are found in Scripture. Regarding the various women whom he names, which of them were biblical expositors of the Scriptures to men in a church setting:___________? Besides, I already have a copy of his book & have written a rebuttal book, so I'm well familiar [& bored] w/ this stuff.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

At this moment I am sitting in a church service, my laptop is open to many thing including AFF...beside me is sitting a pastor...a man that used to be a witchdoctor with his sweet wife, a prophetess. Both he and his wife kissed me on the cheek and said, thank you for preaching to us about Jesus so many years ago...
I am thankful that God sent me to a wonderful people that came to know Him and now they are going all over this vast country.

And I have said until I could almost pass out that EVERYONE should witness about the truth, but I Tim. 2 & I Cor. 14 is contextually speaking of a church setting, not witnessing of the truth as the woman at the well did.

How many times do I have to say this before it's heard??? Sheesh!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Brother John Scheel has an awesome book on this subject. If I am not mistaken his thesis at oxford was on Women Preachers.

The book is of very poor quality & a Greek proffessor friend of mine [David Adams, WV] did not even want to finish reading it because of the sloppy scholarship & mishandling of the Greek.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sam

Sis. Alvear,
You have done a very good job of explaining that Paul was quoting from tradition or oral law in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 in order to refute it in verses 36-40. Not many people see it this way but that is the way I have understood it since back in 1959 when I heard it taught on a reel to reel tape by the late Gordon Magee. He quoted some of the same things you did from the oral law or traditions of the elders.

She's quoting from Bro. Scheel's book. The Talmud does not include quotations regarding "the church." Regardless, the Talmud has nothing to do w/ vs. 34. Astounding how easily ya'll fall for everything......

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Sis Alvear

Keep doing what God has shown you to do. Man and his traditions will not judge us. I have always been taught that if we have a seemingly contradiction in the scriptures it is because we are not interpreting them right. There is only one way to get through to some and that is just pray for them. If they truly have the spirit of God, God can show them better than we can.
God Bless the work you are doing
Godsdrummer/laromans12

Agree, "traditions will not judge us." Such as the traditions of "women preachers in the church", but Scripture will. "I do not allow a woman to teach, or to excercise authority over a man." I mean how muuuuuuch plainer does it get than this?????