For those who want to know...RULES at my church!

[Lucy Van Pelt]

Good Grief, You people that think this isn't happening............
IT'S HAPPENING AND PROBABLY TO YOU RIGHT NOW BECAUSE YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THIS AT ALL!!!!!

Originally Posted by Amos

I'd say most Apostolics would agree that when folks quit church and drop their consecrations, and begin building again that which they destroyed, they backslid.

That is no crucifixion, just fact.

That is your opinion...not based on anything else...because anyone who leaves the UPC can not be saved no matter what unless they come back to the fold...I have seen so many scriptures thrown around and distorted to put fear in saints so they can't leave...I am so glad GOD....led me out!!! READ the whole thread!

[RandyWayne]

GRACE is the enemy of anyone who believes in a works/"leader knows best" form of church. Because GRACE precludes needing any of the above as a prerequisite to salvation. And not needing any of the above also reduces their importance.

[The Mrs]

Originally Posted by JaneEyre

I can tell from this post that you "have lived it"....Only someone who's been in this situation - someone's who's lived it can have these insights. Thanks, Sis. I wanted to type something like this but didn't take the time.

I kept waiting and waiting, thinking someone else would do it, but I finally got worked up enough after seeing some of the thoughts expressed today to jump in and just do it.

I wish you would add your own thoughts as well. You express yourself very well, and I think the more voices the better some may 'hear'.

There are many hurting people out here in la-la land...I wish we could reach them all and help them to heal. And I wish we could bring about a solution for the ministry that promotes this kind of thinking. I think if they knew the damage being done, they would turn it around in a heartbeat.

Originally Posted by The Mrs

I see it's the naysayers turn to voice their opinions and make light of something they really have no idea how hurtful and painful it really is.

It has been repeated over and over...if you haven't walked a mile in my shoes, you have no clue what you're talking about. In this case, that really does apply.

I always get irritated when I see posts that say, 'just walk', 'just leave', 'just go somewhere else'. Vote with your feet. I wish it were that simple, but it's not.

Unless you have been under spiritual abuse, or cult-like tendencies, you can't imagine how hard it really is. You don't 'just leave'. You are tied to that place and that leadership with only one thought in mind...your salvation is at stake. You HAVE to make it to heaven. And THIS is the ONLY WAY to get there. You are taught that there's no other way to be saved. I would NEVER risk my salvation like that.

You can't 'vote with your feet' unless you know it's wrong. Unless you've already had some exposure to it, you just don't realize it's wrong. NOW I know what to look for, and what to avoid...but I didn't THEN. I thought it was how everybody lived (inside the UPC of course).

People living under this kind of bondage lead very pain-filled lives. As witnessed in this thread alone, there were remarks made of suicide, or 'death thoughts'. I remember being one of those as well. You can't please the pastor, so you must not be pleasing God, so you start to think you would be better off dead, and wonder why God hasn't taken your life already. I remember several months that everytime I got in the car I expected to die in a crash.

When you first start realizing something's wrong, and you need to get out of there, you don't think about just going to the church next door. The only acceptable way for you to ever leave THAT CHURCH is if you move. So you start praying that God would give your husband a job opportunity in another city. Or another state. Or even in my case, another country. A job change is the ONLY acceptable reason, and even then it still has to be 'okayed' by the pastor. You still have to ask his permission. And he still has to consult with God about it, and will let you know the outcome.

I wish I could convey the hold this type of teaching has on a person...when you are constantly reminded of how your salvation is tied to this, you don't ever just walk away, or even dare to disagree.

...this is a great post.....

Originally Posted by The Mrs

I see it's the naysayers turn to voice their opinions and make light of something they really have no idea how hurtful and painful it really is.

It has been repeated over and over...if you haven't walked a mile in my shoes, you have no clue what you're talking about. In this case, that really does apply.

I always get irritated when I see posts that say, 'just walk', 'just leave', 'just go somewhere else'. Vote with your feet. I wish it were that simple, but it's not.

Unless you have been under spiritual abuse, or cult-like tendencies, you can't imagine how hard it really is. You don't 'just leave'. You are tied to that place and that leadership with only one thought in mind...your salvation is at stake. You HAVE to make it to heaven. And THIS is the ONLY WAY to get there. You are taught that there's no other way to be saved. I would NEVER risk my salvation like that.

You can't 'vote with your feet' unless you know it's wrong. Unless you've already had some exposure to it, you just don't realize it's wrong. NOW I know what to look for, and what to avoid...but I didn't THEN. I thought it was how everybody lived (inside the UPC of course).

People living under this kind of bondage lead very pain-filled lives. As witnessed in this thread alone, there were remarks made of suicide, or 'death thoughts'. I remember being one of those as well. You can't please the pastor, so you must not be pleasing God, so you start to think you would be better off dead, and wonder why God hasn't taken your life already. I remember several months that everytime I got in the car I expected to die in a crash.

When you first start realizing something's wrong, and you need to get out of there, you don't think about just going to the church next door. The only acceptable way for you to ever leave THAT CHURCH is if you move. So you start praying that God would give your husband a job opportunity in another city. Or another state. Or even in my case, another country. A job change is the ONLY acceptable reason, and even then it still has to be 'okayed' by the pastor. You still have to ask his permission. And he still has to consult with God about it, and will let you know the outcome.

I wish I could convey the hold this type of teaching has on a person...when you are constantly reminded of how your salvation is tied to this, you don't ever just walk away, or even dare to disagree.

Thanks for taking the time to write this! It is so much better than what I was going to say! A lot of this mentality reminds me of people blaming rape victims for rape "because they must have been asking for it"... or blaming battered women for being battered.

Originally Posted by rgcraig

By four people?

Amos, rules like this have been stated about preachers in CA too.

I'm surprised you called these four ladies backslide just because they left a UPC church. You are better than that.

Thank you for your support and clear thinking....

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

The concept of 'spiritual abuse' goes directly against the world view of those who believe in man-made "top down" view of religion. Meaning, pastor and his rules on top and the lay people on the bottom. That is simply "how it is!" to some. The pastor or organization will always be assumed innocent and the lay person will always be assumed guilty.

That is it....very good point

Originally Posted by Tawana

Lawrd hold me back.

Dare I ask Sis what your holding back?

[Whole Hearted]

Originally Posted by Amos

These terrible people (The Oregon pastor and wife) probably would love to know how many thousands of words have been devoted to chronicling the depth of their depravity and evil.

I would just like to remind all and sundry that the testimony of backsliders is generally very slanted at best.

I know that isn't popular with the "Kill the Preacher" crowd, but it is true nonetheless.

All the info is coming from a pretty narrow source, and the pastor has no voice here.

Nothing personal against STS, but just a reminder that one side of any story rarely gives a clear picture.