The Persecution of Women in the Church

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I see no difference in a man or woman uttering a prophecy. They are vocal and say, Thus saith the Lord...do not confuse what I am saying with a man´s or woman´s role. I am only saying that women did LEAD God´s children such as Deborah and women such as Hulda uttered God´s word to priest and men.
I am not saying that is the norm BUT it did happen...
I think this is really not about women preachers but ow the RCC influnced people´s thinking. That is why we have trinity churches today thanks to the RCC and that is why women were taken out of the pulpits thanks to the RCC.

One of the greatest examples of women in ministry is Sister Agnes Holmes. Not belittling anything or any man but growing up there much of what God has done has been through Sister Holmes. If there is a Jesus Name church in Guy Arkansas it was Sister Holmes that started it and if there is one in Sherdian it was Sister Holmes that started it too along with many more.

Brother M. Burr was saved under the preaching of a woman along with MANY well known men preachers of the past...whether they believed in them later or believe in them now may be a different story BUT if it had not been for many women many great men that have graced the platforms would have been lost.
I believe it was Brother Springer that was saved under Sister Holmes preaching, Brother Craig Sissel and many, many others...

However unless it is with WB´s followers I do not debate the subject. I have never claimed to be a WP and have never been ordained as a preacher...I am only a missionary and a firm believer in Acts 8 where it teaches that men and women went every where preaching the word...So whatever that means that is what I am...a spreader of good news...

I am with Mother Alvear.

[Sister Alvear]

Wouldn’t Jesus Christ be a fraud if He would tell a woman to go and tell and then allow Paul to later close her mouth? I have staked my whole eternity on the fact that He is real and not a fraud. I do not believe that Paul closed her mouth. I believe that the present day structure has closed her mouth for the early church had no pulpits to preach behind.

Nothing is out of God´s order by a woman uttering a message from God..It is out of Romes order...out of order to those who obey the Talmud, out of order to muslims, but not out of order to God or for His work.

[Sister Alvear]

Some people say, Sister Alvear, we believe I Cor. 14:34, 35 exactly like it reads, I wonder why they don’t believe Acts 4:34, 35; Acts 5:1 exactly like it reads? Acts 4:34-35, Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. Acts 5:1, But a certain man named Ananias, with Saphira his wife, sold possession. Some one said they believed literally just as the Scripture was written well, I said it says except a man be born again of the water and spirit... does this exclude women? Of course not! The Bible contains a great variety of literary forms such as parables, fables, allegories, poetry, and symbolism. Few would take literally the words of Jesus, If your eye offend you, pluck it out - If your right hand offend you, cut it off (Matthew 5:29-30).
Strange how we read into the bible what we want it to say. We spiritualize what we don’t like, shy away from what we don’t understand.

[Sister Alvear]

, I’m not promoting a masculine woman or women who overstep God’s order. Let me repeat again: A woman should look like a woman, dress like a woman, and act like a woman. There is nothing as repulsive as a woman who has manly mannerisms. On the other hand, even more detestable is a man who is feminine.
There is nothing more graceful to the eyes as a woman who is feminine or a man who is a real gentleman. Some struggle with the concept of women preachers, as Trinitarians struggle with the oneness of God. Their fundamental problem is in understanding the dual nature of Jesus. Likewise, we need to understand the dual responsibilities of a handmaiden of the Lord.
Most women have domestic responsibilities as well as spiritual responsibilities. Genesis 1:28, “And God said unto them be fruitful. And multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. And have dominion.” God said they (both) shall have dominion. In other words, God’s original thinking or plan (before the fall) for man and woman, masculine and feminine, was to have authority and dominion together. God did not tell Adam he was to have exclusive dominion, neither did He tell him he was to govern alone. God said that they were to have dominion. That helps us understand I Timothy 2:12 that says suffer not a woman to teach, or take for oneself, grab, take illegally, usurp (define) authority over the man (The man is her husband). Not a man but the man.
The apostle did not say she shouldn’t have dominion because he knew that in the original plan of God, when man and woman had just come from the Hands of the creator, they both were given dominion. The apostle was not objecting that a woman have dominion but that she could not have dominion over her husband-plain and simple. In God’s original plan, it was wrong for a man to have dominion over a woman. Neither did a woman have dominion over a man. Togetherness and sameness was God’s original concept. This is the perfect plan between the sexes -- more perfect than the Law of Moses that came later.
Note that the Pharisees asked Jesus, if under the Law of Moses it was right to divorce the wife for any reason. Note the response that was given them. “Have you not read from the beginning when God created man and women?” Also note in I Corinthians 14:5-6 “For this cause shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife and they twain shall be one flesh. Wherefore there are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.” Jesus took them back to the Garden of Eden but the Pharisees did not like it and they took him back to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was what they lived by, but Jesus was trying to get them to go back before the Law of Moses the better and more perfect plan. The reason that Moses made a letter of divorce to put away the wife was “because of the hardness of your hearts he suffered you to put away your wives; but from the beginning it was not so.”

[Sister Alvear]

The original plan of God example, “in the garden of Eden” was a better and more perfect plan-the plan before sin. The Law of Moses placed certain restrictions upon women.
We all know and admit this. We know a law that’s higher and a concept that is better. We know a plan that is more idealistic than the Law of Moses that it the original condition of things in the Garden of Eden. God gave the man and the woman dominion in conjunction together (Genesis 1:28). This is a better concept and more sublime than the Law of Moses. Someone said that Adam’s wife came from the rib out of his side. If she was made from his head someone could say that she is the head.
She did not come from his feet, so that she could be, stomped on, but came from his side, which represents that they have been equally valued. That was God’s original plan. We know that a horrible thing happened in Gen:3 that destroyed God’s ideal, or necessitated a change from the original plan.
Sin thwarted God’s concept of the man and woman’s continuity in the garden. Unto the woman he said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. After the fall not before the fall God told the woman, “Your husband shall have rule over thee.” He did not rule before the fall. It was a punishment from God because the woman yielded to temptation and ate the fruit.
But remember this was not God’s original plan. This was a part of the penalty of sin. If it was sin, (and it was) that caused the women to be ruled by man, since then the redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ not only redeemed, but also all the consequences that resulted by sin.
The redemption that is in Christ Jesus took all the disadvantages pronounced upon the woman in the Garden of Eden. The redemption of Christ not only paid sin’s consequences at Calvary but transcends to future women. We who participate in redemption today can enjoy and inherit what was lost in Mother Eve. Please note while I am saying Calvary redeemed us I am not saying we are in a perfect state while yet in this world for we have not reached perfection and only when that which is perfect come shall that which is in part be done away with.
Christianity brought full emancipation to womanhood! Luke 20:34-36: “And Jesus answered and said unto them, the children of this world marry and are given in marriage but - they shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world and the resurrection of the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; Neither can they die anymore; for they are equal unto the angels and are the children of God, being children of the resurrection.”
That world he was talking about was the millennium (the first resurrection) so we encounter the first resurrection a co-equal level between the sexes. There will be neither male nor female in the first resurrection. It will be at this point that redeemed women will understand completely what the redemption of Christ signifies for her. It will only be at this point both man and woman will be in all things on the same level.

[Sister Alvear]

Redemption has to be greater than the fall and must go beyond all dimensions that the fall brought upon humanity. Redemption covers every area of life. Why is it that we have no difficulty in celebrating what redemption has brought to mankind, but yet find it hard to celebrate redemption in connection with the woman? Could it be that many theologians have biased ideas and opinions?
Revelation 20:6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection as such the second death hath no power but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years. This refers to the same event where there will be no difference in sex neither male nor female. Note that the Bible says “And shall reign (rule) with him one thousand years.” God’s original conception of things will be restored; male and female will be governing co-equal again (Revelation 1:6 and 5:10). Many people accept this theory in the coming generations but don’t want it in this generation. It stands to reason in this generation we are yet striving to reach that place in Christ. But as we put on Christ more and more we will see less competition among the sexes. We will all begin to realize that when the spirit moves upon us to speak we neither speak as male or female but as oracles of God. Our voice becomes his voice when we are in perfect harmony with Him.
It is true that only in the first resurrection will women experience and understand all the deep things Christ had for them. We all know this, but this present generation is the first fruit generation where from we anticipate coming things. For Christ died on the cross to redeem your spirit, soul and body. But it will not be until the first resurrection that you will see and experience the redemption of your body; yet we have the first fruits of His blessings (inheritance). If you have the baptism of the Holy Ghost, you have the first fruits of this inheritance.
Ephesians 1:13-14: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit and promise. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” The woman will not experience all the manifestations of her liberty until Jesus comes, but it would be wrong to say she has no type of emancipation.
Acts 2:16, 17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream
dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my spirit; and they shall prophecy.
When the Holy Ghost came, it brought the first fruits or anticipation of a glorious and total liberty that takes away all disadvantages of women. Peter said: your sons and your daughters too shall prophesy (No difference). Pentecost brought the anticipated feminine emancipation.

[Sister Alvear]

Genesis 3:12: “And the man said, The women thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.” God came to see what had happened. Adam blamed his wife and at the same time blamed God saying, “The woman gave to me and I did eat.” Then the Lord turned and looked to the woman who pointed the blame back into the devil’s face.
The devil has hated her every since. The devil hated her because she accused him before the Lord as being responsible for the fall. With hate he has tried to humiliate and degrade her ever since. That’s why there are so many false doctrines that try to degrade women. Genesis 3:15, began a war between the woman and the devil because it would be from her seed that redemption would come (Galatians 4:4).
It is interesting to note that - three names are applied to Adam’s wife:
(1) Woman (in Genesis 2:23)
(2)Both are called Adam in Genesis 5:2. God made
them “one flesh” and gave them one name.
(3) Eve was the name given after the transgression
(Genesis 3:16, 20). Eve means “life” or “life- giving” or mother of all who have life. Maybe this helps us understand better that as mentioned through the seed of the woman, sin would one day be vanquished and death would be swallowed up in victory.
Through a woman the Holy Ghost was going to conceive and make the Word flesh. The love of God is beautiful which anoints a lowly woman to speak the Word. Jesus is the central figure. God lifted woman up and used her to bring forth Jesus. Adam was first but He came by woman. It is the woman more than the man that appears in the redemption story. Genesis 3:15; Galatians 4:4-5; Luke 1:26-30; Luke 1:42.
The incarnation of the Word gives the women freedom to preach, to minister, to speak publicly and to defend the Word of God. This is one of the theological implications of the doctrine of incarnation.
Something so very special happened to a woman. She carried Grace and Truth. The only time the glory of God was totally encased in flesh was by a virgin girl named Mary. For the Bible says “that holy thing” referring to the fetus of Jesus Christ was the New Testament Ark of the Covenant. The Holiest of Holies lay nestled safely in her womb. The first time the mercy seat would ever be touched as human form would be touched by Mary. She embraced it and cradled it in her arms - the very Word of life.
The man ruling over the woman is not natural (original state of things), it is abnormal - a result of sin. It is like death. Death is not natural, it is abnormal - a result of sin. I’ve heard people say that some person died a natural death. Death may be common, but it is not natural. God planned that we should live forever, so death is not natural. One day it will be swallowed up in victory (1 Corinthians 15:55). The man has governed the woman ever since the fall so it may sound common and seem natural but that was not God’s original plan.
Not in domestic life, but a spiritual view point concerning spiritual things. In the first resurrection the situation above mentioned will be mended.
The woman was put under a divine order to be subject to her husband. We all know that, and no godly woman would disagree. Paul’s teaching on a woman’s obedience to the husband is based on the precept of loving his wife as Christ loved the church. He gave His life for it.
Paul recognized and taught that men and women are heirs together in grace. I Corinthians 12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and all have been - all made to drink into one Spirit. Ephesians 6-8: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall receive of the Lord, Whether he be bond or free. Colossians 3:10-11: And have put on the new man, Which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him. Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcison, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
And let the peace of God rule in your heart, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord (Colossians 3:15-16).

[Sister Alvear]

I am PASTING FROM MY BOOK...SO SOME AF REPEATS FROM PORTIONS I PASTED LAST EVENING...

It is interesting to note that God provided for Adam a “helpmeet” (help meet). Meet also means suitable so, a help suitable for him. It is only where true Christianity is practiced that the woman attains to such a position as the helper or equal of man in the presence of the Lord. In lands where darkness reigns, woman is the slave, the chattel of man. The Hebrew word helpmeet means, the exact counterpart of himself, or the exact formulation of the other.
God did not create Eve to be Adam’s servant, but created her to be an equal companion. When I say equal I mean equal is worth not equal in order. God created another being like Adam for companionship. Even when God created the animals, fowls, and fish, the females were not slaves to their male counterparts. This requires equality of mutuality. The two earthlings would share the same tasks and responsibilities. Genesis 1:28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
The Hebrew term “eler” translated as “helper” does carry a connotation of assistance, but whether the help comes from a superior or an inferior cannot be determined without context. The term describing what the woman does for Adam can also refer to what God does for the people (Psalm 33:20; 54:4; 70:5; 79:9; 109:26; 115:9-1-1). Clearly this kind of help does not denote servitude or subservience.
This term does not imply that the woman was in any way inferior to the man or the human creature. The word simply ascribes a beneficial relationship between two parties in which one helps the other. There is no sense in which the helper is subordinate to the one in need of help. If the man is superior, why would he need any help at all from one who is inferior. Isn’t it usually the inferior that requires help from the superior? As a doctor who is superior in medical knowledge reaches out to help an inferior, his sickly patient.
The word “helper” translates better as “Partner” since it is used in the Old Testament to denote an agent of equal or even superior strength. God is the only other entity to whom the Old Testament applies the word. For example: Psalm 46:1, “A time of help in trouble”, Deuteronomy 33:26, “Rides the heaven to your rescue”, and Psalm 70:5, “My helper, my Savior, Yahweh.” I am not saying the woman is above man I am only saying as helper she is not a slave.
The women in the Old Testament had a tremendous disadvantage. As we continue to read God’s Word, we can slowly see the dignity of the woman being restored. Even with the devil furiously fighting against her, there were occasions when she rose above her disadvantages showing a marvelous manifestation of courage and, on several occasions exercising notable ministries.
We may want to hide from these stories. They are sometimes unpleasant in the extreme. They raise issues we may wish to avoid or deny. Yet they are stories of the lives of women who lived as we live in an abusive, even hostile world.

[SDG]

Mother Alvear ... I'm floored ... You have schooled us ...

[Sister Alvear]

Under the Old Testament law, she could rise above her situation or disadvantage and prophesy, judge Israel, instruct kings, save nations. If she could do this under the law then under the New Testament she should be able to do more. One thing for certain says the book of Hebrews we live in a better day. If we take these two verses alone by themselves, I would say we do not live in a better era. It’s no good for the women just to sit in silence.
The woman shall not read the Bible. (In other words she shall not read her Bible in church). It is better to burn the law (Bible) than to permit it to be taught by a woman. The testimony of one hundred women is not equal to the testimony of one man.

The jury only applies to men. The body of a man can be carried through the streets for burial, but you need not worry about a woman’s body. A woman cannot be counted to make up a Jewish congregation (nine men and one woman is not enough.) A woman should not speak among men. Where did these laws and biased opinions come from? The Jewish Talmud!

It surely did not come from the Bible! The Jewish Talmud is the Jewish commentary of the Law of Moses. All traditions as well as many others came from the Talmud. The Jewish Talmud was in existence when our Lord Jesus was upon earth. Jesus knew all about “their” Talmud and that the Jews considered observing the Talmud as a vital part of life.

The Rabbis had passed the Talmud on from generation to generation. The people accepted the Talmud like a Bible. To them it was a law meant to be obeyed. Notice when our Lord Jesus came to earth He did not conform His life or ministry to the Talmudic Laws. It seems He even had a radical opinion when it came to women.

Notice John 4:27: And upon this came his disciples, and marveled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, what seekest thou? Or, why talkest thou with her? The disciples marveled because he was talking to a woman, not because she was a bad woman, just because she was a woman.

Perhaps they marveled also just because he was talking to a woman, since in times of Christ no Jewish rabbi would take out time to speak with a woman. To them all women were insignificant. Women were only to bear children and to take care of their husbands. Religiously speaking she was not taught that a woman was inferior and subordinate.

Our Lord Jesus showed a different attitude. His principles were different than the everyday Jewish life and attitudes. Jesus did not rebuke the women that spoke (see Luke 8:47; 11:27; 13:13).

Jesus put aside their Talmud with its severe laws and restrictions about women. He did what no other rabbi would have done at that time. He declared that one of His objectives was “to set at liberty those who are oppressed” (Luke 4:18).

John 8 is an example of prejudice born within the Talmud. John 8:3: “And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst- -.”

They were not really concerned with Moses’ Law. Had that been, they would have brought the man also. They had caught them in the act of adultery, but they brought the woman only. This was a set up of the Pharisees to trap Jesus.

Jesus ignored the entrapments of the Pharisees. Though there were many injustices towards women, Jesus continued in silence writing in the sand. The men went away ashamed and confused.

The Jews scandalized his friendship with Mary and Martha, but he paid no attention. Jesus did not accept the Talmud as divine law. “Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, honor thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother let him die the death. But ye say, whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, it is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightiest be profited by me; and honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:1-9).

Jesus paid no attention to their Talmud. The scribes understood what Jesus was getting at. My friend, crucial issues are at stake. Will we lapse into the stifling silences? Will you join the oppression of women by calling it God’s will?

Do you know where it states: “A woman is not to come forward to read and whoever teaches his daughter the Torah is like one who teaches her obscenity - Rather should the words of the Torah be burned than entrusted to a woman. (Rabbi Eliezer: Mishnah Sotah 3,4).

In the Old Testament women proclaimed the faith. The voices of women broke through the barriers. Admittedly, the proclamations of these women were few and far between. The male culture succeeded in stifling most of the women, but their voices came through and their voices will continue to come through.

Do you know that no woman ever spoke against Jesus? Even Pilate’s wife defended Him saying Ado nothing against this just man. When those men were fighting about who would sit next to the throne, it was only Mary that perceived His death was near. It was Mary that anointed His feet. Judas rebuked her, but Jesus said, "she is preparing me for my death. She showed more perception than all the men did together.

When the multitude was scorning Him, it was the daughters of Jerusalem that were weeping. When the disciples were behind closed doors because they were afraid of the Jews, it was the women that were walking in the darkness of the garden with oil to anoint their Lord.

It seemed that the women understood that they were in the presence of their best friend. The day of Pentecost rang Jubilee bells for all women. Acts 2:16-18: But this is that - which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


In the long history of the church, God has conducted its affairs in a way that often was beyond human understanding. Peter once said, If then God gave them the same gift to them as he gave us...who was I (who are we) that I (we) could withstand God (Acts 11:1).