What is a Happening Church to you? What is a Dead church?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

This is really it. I gotta go!!!!!


Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

This was their response when they had heard what Paul said. They were re-baptized in Jesus name.

A proper response to the work of the Holy Spirit is to publicly identify with the work of the Lamb in our hearts.

One writer states:

• THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ESSENTIAL IN THE CONVERSION OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD'S CHURCH (V. 41)
• 1. Acts 2:41: "Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day" (NIV).
  2. "So then, those who had received his word..."
     1. Three thousand who had come for the feast.
     2. Three thousand who had not known Jesus.
        1. 3,000 sinners who were changed by God's word, by the preaching of the truth, by the work of the Holy Spirit.
     3. No matter where you are, in or out of Christ, the Holy Spirit can touch your heart.
  3. What was this message (NASB 'word') of Peter that they accepted (v. 41)?
     1. It was a message of conviction (v. 22).
        1. Acts 2:22: "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. (NIV)
           1. Do you have this belief about Jesus?
     2. It was a message of the cross (v. 23).
        1. Acts 2:23: A This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross" (NIV).
     3. It was a message of the resurrection (v. 24).
        1. Acts 2:24: A But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. (NIV)
     4. It was the gospel!
        1. It is interesting to not that when the gospel was given 3000 were saved.
        2. In Exodus 32 when Moses returned from the mountain of God to the people of Israel who had made the golden calf, he threw down the tablets of the ten commandments. 3000 died.
        3. When the law was given 3000 perished; when the gospel was given 3000 were saved.
  4. All real conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit.
     1. The case of Nicodemus (John 3:1-8).
        1. In John 3:5, Jesus tells Nicodemus that A...no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit" (NIV).
     2. The testimony of Paul to Titus (Titus 3:5).
        1. Titus 3:5 says, "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit," (NIV)
     3. True conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit does not stop there. He continues to work in your life.
• WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS IN YOU, THERE SHOULD BE SOME FORM OF PUBLIC WITNESS (V. 41)
• In verse 41 it says they were baptized.
  1. Salvation takes place in the heart, but you confess Him publicly.
  2. Baptism is a public witness, a public identification with Christ.
     1. Even Jesus made a public confession of faith when He was baptized.
     2. Think of the hostile atmosphere at that time.
        1. The corrupt Pharisees were the spiritual leaders.
        2. The harsh Roman Government was the political leader.
     3. The Holy Spirit will move you also to this act of obedience...and other acts of obedience.
        1. Standing for Jesus
        2. Being a witness for Him.
        3. Remaining morally pure.
  3. The Holy Spirit gives public expression to the Gospel through you.
  4. (Incidentally, why was Jesus baptized into John's baptism which was a baptism of repentance. Jesus was sinless, so why did He need John's baptism? Some say it was to identify with the believer. This is true, but more importantly, Jesus was entering into the ministry at this time by becoming a priest after the order of Melchizedek. According to Leviticus 8 and Exodus 29, a priest had to be anointed with oil, washed, and received a blessing. All three were there for Jesus. He was entering into the High Priesthood in order to be a sacrifice to God for the sins of the world.)
  http://www.carm.org/sermons/Acts_2_41-42.htm

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Our soul is cleansed, washed by the blood of Christ when we call on his name at water baptism. It's more than symbolic.

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Death is not a likeness of Spirit baptism.

You have misinterpreted Romans 6 and placed a doctrine developed in the early part of the 20th century in it's place

Romans 6 does not say this Mizpeh no matter the verbal, logical and theological gymnastics used to contort this portion of scripture.

Please read it without inferential reasoning.

--------------------

Baptism and Roman 6:3-5

Romans 6:3-5 is often used as a proof text for the claim that baptism is essential for salvation. It is a strong comparison between our baptism and Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. On the surface, one could conclude that from these verses, that baptism is part of salvation.

"3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,"

Is this section of scripture teaching us that baptism is necessary for salvation to happen? No, it is not. First, we know from the rest of scripture that salvation is by faith, not by faith and something we do Rom. 3:28-30. Second, we can see from other scriptures that baptism follows faith. Take a look at Acts 16:30-33 where the Jailer specifically asks what he must do to be saved and where baptism fits in.

"and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household." 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household," (Acts 16:30-33,NASB).

If baptism were part of salvation, then Paul should have said, "Believe and be baptized and you will be saved." But, he did not. Also, consider Acts 10:44-46.

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV).

These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10:44-46 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This isn't an exception. It is a reality. This proves that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

What is Romans 6:3-5 saying?

"3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,"

The phrase "baptized into" occurs five times in the NT in four verses as found in the KJV and the NASB..

• Rom. 6:3, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"
• 1 Cor. 10:2, "and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea."
• 1 Cor. 12:13, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."
• Gal. 3:27, "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

To be baptized "into Christ," "into His death," "into Moses," and "into one body" is to be publicly identified with the thing you are being baptized into. The focus is not the baptism itself, but on the thing the baptism represents. In the case of Rom. 6:3-5, being baptized into Christ is a public identification with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection which is said to be the gospel that saves in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. Baptism, then is a public statement proclaiming that the person is trusting in the sacrifice of Christ.
Baptism by immersion is a perfect symbol for this work of Christ with which the Christian is identifying himself. As Christ died and was raised to a new life, so to the Christian, in Christ, is said to have died (Rom. 6:11; Col. 3:3) and has a new life. This new life of regeneration is by faith, the internal work. Baptism, is the external work of identification with Christ. This is why the reference to baptism in the Bible is dealing more with "our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism."1

• Baptism is being identified as a disciple (Matt. 28:18-9).
• Baptism may be compared to a new birth (John 3:5).
• Baptism is compared to Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-5).
• Baptism is compared to Israel's Exodus and passing through the Red Sea (1 Cor. 10:2).
• Baptism is compared to Noah's escaping the flood waters by entering the ark (1 Pet. 3:21).
  
  

[SDG]

continued:

In each of the references above, baptism is an identification with something. When people were baptized into John the Baptist's baptism of repentance, it wasn't the baptism that granted them repentance or made repentance real. Repentance is something that happens internally and is the work of God (2 Tim. 2:25). To participate in John's baptism was to publicly proclaim that the person being baptized was accepting John's message or repentance. Hence, it was called a baptism of repentance. It wasn't the baptism that brought repentance; rather, baptism was the result of repentance.

The person had to first decide to repent, and then become baptized as a proclamation of his decision. Likewise, the Christian must first decide to repent, to receive Christ (John 1:12), to rely on the sacrifice of Christ, by faith, and then participate in the public proclamation of identifying with Christ's work.

It is an identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ that baptism represents. Jesus' shed blood is what cleanses us from our sins (Heb. 9:22), not being washed with water. It is Christ's death that is the payment for sin. Jesus' burial is the proof that He, in fact, died. Jesus' resurrection is the proof of God the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice of Christ and that death is conquered. Again, for a Christian to be baptized is to make a public proclamation that he is trusting in Christ's work, that he is naming himself with Christ and trusting what Christ has done. This is why it says in Rom. 6:11, "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus" (NASB).

Why? Because "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me," (Gal. 2:20). It is on the cross that Jesus paid for our sins, not in His baptism and not in our baptism. It is our identification with Him, being counted "in Christ" that allows us to say we have been crucified with Christ so that we can say we are dead to sin. We are not dead to sin by our baptism. Rather, we are dead to sin, by faith, in what Jesus did in His sacrifice.

Conclusion

Romans 6:3-5 speaks to us of Christ's work and our public identification with it. In that ancient world of religious plurality in Roman gods, in the strict Laws of the Jewish system, and in the gods of different cultures, to be baptized was to make a bold statement of commitment to Christ as the risen Lord. It was not the water that saved, but faith in Christ and His work.

___________________
Footnotes:
1. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Rom_6_3-5.htm

[mfblume]

If baptism were part of salvation, then Paul should have said, "Believe and be baptized and you will be saved."

Jesus did. Mark 16:16. Or will some call that verse spurious?

If baptism were part of salvation, then Paul should have said, "Believe and be baptized and you will be saved."

Agreed! But this does not mean baptism is not essential.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Jesus did. Mark 16:16. Or will some call that verse spurious?

Some would say it's spurious ... with legitimate arguments ... while careful examination of Christ words in this portion and how it harmonizes throughout the Gospels, the epistles and the rest of scripture will suffice.

My good friend, Adino, in the Sinful Union thread asserts:

Mark 16:16 presents no problem again for several possible reasons:

1) A person could simply take the position that the end of chapter 16 was not in the original manuscripts as is contended by many. I personally do not lean toward this view but it is certainly one.

2) One could realize that Christ does not say the one who is not baptized will be damned. If this was his intented meaning then there were certainly other ways he could have clearly made this point, but he does not.

3) Just because baptism is mentioned with believing in Christ's statement does not automatically mean baptism is necessary for salvation. You cannot make this assumption. Consider the following like statement: "He that goes through the proper process of legal marriage and wears a wedding ring shall be married, but he that does not go through the proper process of legal marriage shall be considered unwed." It would be wrong to suggest that in order to be wed one MUST wear a wedding ring. While it stands as an outward expression and token of love, the wearing of the wedding ring has no bearing on the marriage status of our hypothetical person.

Similarly, while the believer who is baptized shall be saved, it would be mistaken to jump to the conclusion that the believer who is not baptized would be damned. Christ did not say this at all. He says the one who does not believe is damned..... period. With a proper cultural understanding of baptism as the outward expression of repentance and faith it can be rightfully concluded that the act has nothing to do with salvation before God. While it does stand as a visual token of salvation to the church, it has no bearing on effecting salvation of the soul.

Bottom line, there are other plausible interpretations of this passage which should be considered.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Whether the church is one where folks are backflippin or one where the worship is litergical, a happening church would be one where souls are getting to know Jesus and making lifelong commitments to him.

A happening church is one that has many entire families living as godly examples in a wicked world.

A dead church is where people are weak in faith.

Where even the families in the church struggle with Christian living on a daily basis.

Where the assembly has simply become a place to "get recharged", and esoteric affirmation is revered as the premium experience.

You have spoken profound truths here, brother Steve. Relationship over a temporary experience .... AMEN.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Some would say it's spurious ... with legitimate arguments ... while careful examination of Christ words in this portion and how it harmonizes throughout the Gospels, the epistles and the rest of scripture will suffice.

My good friend, Adino, in the Sinful Union thread asserts:

Mark 16:16 presents no problem again for several possible reasons:

1) A person could simply take the position that the end of chapter 16 was not in the original manuscripts as is contended by many. I personally do not lean toward this view but it is certainly one.

2) One could realize that Christ does not say the one who is not baptized will be damned. If this was his intented meaning then there were certainly other ways he could have clearly made this point, but he does not.

3) Just because baptism is mentioned with believing in Christ's statement does not automatically mean baptism is necessary for salvation. You cannot make this assumption. Consider the following like statement: "He that goes through the proper process of legal marriage and wears a wedding ring shall be married, but he that does not go through the proper process of legal marriage shall be considered unwed." It would be wrong to suggest that in order to be wed one MUST wear a wedding ring. While it stands as an outward expression and token of love, the wearing of the wedding ring has no bearing on the marriage status of our hypothetical person.

Similarly, while the believer who is baptized shall be saved, it would be mistaken to jump to the conclusion that the believer who is not baptized would be damned. Christ did not say this at all. He says the one who does not believe is damned..... period. With a proper cultural understanding of baptism as the outward expression of repentance and faith it can be rightfully concluded that the act has nothing to do with salvation before God. While it does stand as a visual token of salvation to the church, it has no bearing on effecting salvation of the soul.

Bottom line, there are other plausible interpretations of this passage which should be considered.

Dan,

I wish you would get into this discussion yourself. If I wanted to discuss this with Carm or Adino, I wouldn't be here typing to you.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Dan,

I wish you would get into this discussion yourself. If I wanted to discuss this with Carm or Adino, I wouldn't be here typing to you.

Properly cited ... Matt ... oloroid

Please read.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Oh ....let me help you out w/ this ... Praxeas and Amos ...

First, God's plan of Salvation is Jesus Christ ... HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION are the Gospel ... We are not saved based on our re-enactment of it.

Dan, I never said otherwise. Sometimes I feel like reaching out and pinning the tail on your forhead

Second, a dead church is JUST THAT ... DEAD. Many posters, including myself, defined the difference between a happening church and a dead church ... in the previous thread but some will read into it what the please.

Well nobody dragged you over here to discuss another vein Dan.

A dead church does not lift up the THE LIFE ... but lift up their own works, man-made traditions, religious rituals and their kingdoms.

A dead church does not ALLOW the PNEUMA OF GOD ... to operate ... it is as dead as the dead bones in the valley the prophet was instructed to speak to.

Finally, we can agree on something. This can be any church Pentecostal or not. Though if they are calling themselves Pentecostal it's false advertisement

A Spirit-filled church, Trinitarian or OP, has THE LIFE flowing through it's members... it has growth in many areas ... impact, maturity, vision, and yes ... even in number.

A HAPPENING CHURCH is God-centered and lost-centered. A happening church is the body of a PALPABLE GOD ... he is the Head. Their energy and life source is HIM.

Again something we can agree on. Now, was that so hard?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.....this is water baptism

AND have been all made to drink into one Spirit. ......this is Spirit baptism. :sshhh

NO, that would be Spirit baptism