Would you allow a man like this in your pulpit?

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Anyway, Paul was not in the least guilt ridden.

you may be right.... but you can't be 100% sure of that....

Originally Posted by Malvaro

you may be right.... but you can't be 100% sure of that....

I could be wrong if the blood of Jesus was not efficacious in those days. I suspect that it was. tic....

Anyway, in reading the Pauline Epistles, I personally find no hint of it. He stated some facts in regards to persecuting the church, though regretful, the guilt did not remain.

[TK Burk]

Brother Strange,

It is good to talk with you. I hope this helps answer your question:

Acts 8:3
(3) As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Acts 9:1-2
(1) And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
(2) And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

Acts 22:4
(4) And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

1 Timothy 1:13
(13) Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

From these we see Paul did attack both men and women in the Church. Since both men and women were removed from the house, and sometimes received death, we know this left their children, orphans.

Also, if the men received the greater part of this martyrdom, then we know that this also left many widows. Now to what Paul wrote:

1 Timothy 5:3, 5, 9, 10
(3) Honor widows that are widows indeed.
(5) Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
(9) Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
(10) Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

Brought up children. Either her own, or orphans or neglected children. (The People's New Testament (1891) by B. W. Johnson)

1 Timothy 5:16
(16) If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

If there were no family to support these widows (which Paul might have also caused), then he said it was the Church’s responsibility to take care of these women.

I am sure this played a part in Paul taking up offerings to honor those in areas that received the greater amount of persecution.

Romans 15:25-26
(25) But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
(26) For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Remember where Paul took his prisoners for punsihement, injury, and death? Jerusalem!

As far as you being "always in disagreement," that is for you and Jesus to answer.

I hope this helps.

Bless your studies, Elder!

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Felicity,

I don't think that preaching of grace is any part of that factor at all.

Paul was the Apostle of Grace. He is the one to whom the revelation of grace was revealed. He called it "my gospel." Grace was not revealed to Peter, James or John in the way that it was revealed to Paul. He received this revelation while he was away two years in the wilderness after his conversion. It was hard to be understood by the other Apostles. Peter declared that Paul had written things that was hard to be understood, but had written according to the knowledge and revelation that God had given to him.

Paul called it, "according to MY gospel."

Anyway, Paul was not in the least guilt ridden.

Felicity,

I hope you don't think me rude here, but I want to contribute an answer to Brother Strange's question.

1 Timothy 1:12-16
(12) And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
(13) Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
(14) And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
(15) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
(16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul knew what he did. He knew it was wrong. He knew that it had eternal ramifications for those he persecuted and killed. He also knew he was forgiven. Did that mean he did not wish he had done differently before? I think our memory is a buffer that keeps both the sane and the saved on track. There is just something about remembering that our former actions caused blood shed that makes us act differently in the future.

If this is not the case, I wish Brother Strange would explain the parable of the Unmerciful Servant (See Matthew 18:23-35).

Blessings, my Sister!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Felicity,

I hope you don't think me rude here, but I want to contribute an answer to Brother Strange's question.

1 Timothy 1:12-16
(12) And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
(13) Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
(14) And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
(15) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
(16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul knew what he did. He knew it was wrong. He knew that it had eternal ramifications for those he persecuted and killed. He also knew he was forgiven. Did that mean he did not wish he had done differently before? I think our memory is a buffer that keeps both the sane and the saved on track. There is just something about remembering that our former actions caused blood shed that makes us act differently in the future.

If this is not the case, I wish Brother Strange would explain the parable of the Unmerciful Servant (See Matthew 18:23-35).

Blessings, my Sister!

Very good answer. You win a cookie.

[Twisp]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

No, Paul did this in ignorance. He did not see that he was being disobedient to God. Instead, he saw he was doing God's will. Big Difference!

In Paul’s case, he did not know he was out of God’s will. But after his conversion, if he had remained a persecutor and killer, he would have then disqualified himself from his Apostleship.

The preacher in question—WITHOUT DOUBT—knew his actions were WRONG!

So if the man had thought he was doing God's will it would have been different?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Twisp

So if the man had thought he was doing God's will it would have been different?

Does the OT make a provision to rape children?

Paul was a Rabbi who loved God and the stoning of blasphemers was allowed by Torah.

Sorry, Lost and Found.

I know all of those scriptures quite well, most of which are memorized. But, I don't see any guillt nor do I see any particular excessive obsession toward the widows and orphans any more than what any other godly man would have. Certainly, I see no indication of a burden of guilt because he persecuted the church.

If there was the nagging question of guilt, I am sure that he knew that one trip to calvary would wash all guilt away. At least, I give him that much credit.

James said "Pure religion undefiled before God is this: to visit the widows and and fatherless in their afflictions and keep yourselves unspotted before the world."

Did James persecute the church? Did James carry a lot of guilt because there were widows and orphans? I hardly think so. If he did, I am sure that he could have found his way to the cross also. The cross takes care of all human condition that is against us.

[TK Burk]

Brother Strange,

Great post! I am glad you include your thoughts here. Though I do not agree with you, I know differing views allow others to evaluate what is truly God’s Word.

As far as James’ writing; no wonder he wrote what he did. As a member of the Jerusalem Church, James LIVED through Saul’s (Paul’s) persecution and slaughter. I am sure he personally knew and dealt with many widows and orphans Saul made in his pre-Jesus life. Yet, there it is; a reminder to relieve those whom Saul left in such plight. Thanks for adding that. I feel it does make what I said clearer.

There is one thing you are omitting which I wish you'd explain: where does restitution come in concerning salvation? When a man can, do you believe he is to make issues right with those he has wronged?

As far as guilt: Brother, I am not sure about you, but concerning me; I can never speak or sing of Jesus' Cross without getting feelings of both guilt and appreciation. I am more than thankful for Jesus’ willingness to sacrifice His life for mine, but I am also saddened that He had to. Such remorse helps keep me from sinning again. Why? Because I remember the cost He paid to forgive me of my sin is His own blood. That is the horror of sin. Surely you can see this?

God bless you Elder!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Brother Strange,

Great post! I am glad you include your thoughts here. Though I do not agree with you, I know differing views allow others to evaluate what is truly God’s Word.

As far as James’ writing; no wonder he wrote what he did. As a member of the Jerusalem Church, James LIVED through Saul’s (Paul’s) persecution and slaughter. I am sure he personally knew and dealt with many widows and orphans Saul made in his pre-Jesus life. Yet, there it is; a reminder to relieve those whom Saul left in such plight. Thanks for adding that. I feel it does make what I said clearer.

There is one thing you are omitting which I wish you'd explain: where does restitution come in concerning salvation? When a man can, do you believe he is to make issues right with those he has wronged?

As far as guilt: Brother, I am not sure about you, but concerning me; I can never speak or sing of Jesus' Cross without getting feelings of both guilt and appreciation. I am more than thankful for Jesus’ willingness to sacrifice His life for mine, but I am also saddened that He had to. Such remorse helps keep me from sinning again. Why? Because I remember the cost He paid to forgive me of my sin is His own blood. That is the horror of sin. Surely you can see this?

God bless you Elder!

Very good answer, just for that you deserve an extra scoop of Rocky Road ice cream.