I think it is dangerous when every time someone has a "revelation" about God, that they say that everyone who hasn't had that revelation worships a different God... when the day before the "revelation" it was the same God.
There is only one truth. The Jews and Jesus knew this truth. John 4:22 The Jews were witnesses to the truth of who God is. Isa 43:10-12, Isa 44:8 Why did the truth change when God became man? I think it is dangerous when truth is changed into a lie.
Do you think it is possible to come to revelations of God? Paul did. Can we grow in our knowledge of God? What if someone started out in false doctrine, say they were a Biblical Unitarian, and then came to a knowledge of the truth, would it be wrong for them to say they were serving a different Jesus the day before?
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
There is only one truth. The Jews and Jesus knew this truth. John 4:22 The Jews were witnesses to the truth of who God is. Isa 43:10-12, Isa 44:8 Why did the truth change when God became man? I think it is dangerous when truth is changed into a lie.
Do you think it is possible to come to revelations of God? Paul did. Can we grow in our knowledge of God? What if someone started out in false doctrine, say they were a Biblical Unitarian, and then came to a knowledge of the truth, would it be wrong for them to say they were serving a different Jesus the day before?
Again, you are saying that every time you have a revelation that it is a different God?
You know Price, you have very little to say that is valid. schooled or legitimate. Truth is relative to some? What a joke... your concept of absolute concrete truth is more fluid than anyone I have ever known.
I know the truth and it has set me free. Many believe oneness and trinitarians will be in heaven.... Because faith in Jesus Christ is what saves.. not onews personal persuasion in the Godhead... which is a VERY difficult subject of study.... there is alot more than your two or three pet verses
I'd watch what measure of judgement I use if I where you... it may come back on you
SG,
How many times and in how many ways have have we disagreed? this is not one of those times....or ways...
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Well this thread certainly took an intresting direction. I want to clarify a point I was trying to make in a round about way by starting this thread. I see the Oneness of God as biblical truth plain and simple. However around here it always seems to me we attack the people who believe the trinitarian doctrine more then the doctrine itself.
Why must the slogan of so many be "All trinitarians are going to hell"? Shouldn't we be pointing out trinitarian error instead of condeming alot of very sincere people to hell?
I have many freinds who are trinitarians many have a close walk with God and long to know more of him. With sincerity like that I believe many will eventualy find the truth. However, when I keep seeing people condeming them to hell I just wonder if the door to the truth isn't being slammed in their face...........
JHarv,
I agree with you that we should not be condemning Trinitarians but we should be speaking the truth in love,
and Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will
As well as He that wins souls is wise
and A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.
If you offend someone by belittling their experience with God, it will be very difficult to convince them that your point of view is Biblically sound.
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Again, you are saying that every time you have a revelation that it is a different God?
No, that's not what I'm saying. Not even close.
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
I'm trying to understand... is the difference where I say "They are not serving a different God" and you say "They are not serving the same Jesus"... is this where we differ? If Jesus is God then this means the same thing, even if someone who believes in God does not believe in Jesus.
Again, you are saying that every time you have a revelation that it is a different God?
I agree with you. The truth is that for the ones that go with the "different god" theory are just saying it because if anyone believes contrary to the "new revelation" then they are discounted. There should be no discounting. There much to much scripture to prove right and wrong. I think that people tread thin ice when they have an extra biblical revelation. There is revelation in the bible. But a revelation is simply something that was once not seen and now is. Someone may see something in the Bible by reading between the lines. Truth is truth, personal revelations aside.
There are people all the time that get personal reservations from the word that are unvalid. Look at the Jehovah's Witnesses. They "see" a revelation in the scripture, but it is incorrect, but they still hold that it is a revelation. So, Sheltie you are right. Only one God.
The word "oneness" isn't in scripture either. Neither, for that matter, is the word "Pentecostal." Oh, if you're going to quote from the Creeds, please quote from the Orthodox versions and not the Roman Catholic versions that actually changed the doctrine.
Sorry, Chan, I wasn't clear. I can't find the teaching or concept of the Trinity in the Bible. It's not taught in the OT or the NT. I didn't mean the word, Trinity. I quoted from the creed CARM had listed. I believe those at CARM think of themselves as being ORTHODOX.
Quote:
Yes, trinitarians do say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all "God" by nature, i.e. "God" is what they are, though some trinitarians say God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet others say that the three "persons" (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are in God or that God is in the three persons ("God in three persons, blessed trinity").
Then why don't they just say 'same substance' instead of God. The way I understand when God speaks of himself in the Bible, He is not calling himself a substance. ie: Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
Quote:
Well, I don't agree with the Roman Catholic version of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed - because it has the oxymoron of a Son that is "eternally begotten" and because it says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "and the Son" (contrary to Jesus' saying the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father).
I agree with you that eternally begotten is an oxymoron. Also why would the Spirit proceeding from the Father necessitate that the Spirit is a different person than the Father instead of a manifestion of the same God.
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Let me get this around my uneducated, invalid, and illegitimate mind. Suddenly we see a trinity is in Heaven, then it is not. We see those who believe in the trinity in Heaven, despite what scriptures says? Since when do we have the right to contradict what scripture clearly says? Who do we think we are?
I am sorry. I forgot. I am not as educated as some of you are. I am not as learned as you are. I am just a castaway. I am just a man who has read the Bible. Silly me. I thought it was the final word of God. I forgot how men's opinions override the scriptures, and we can welcome all who believe in false pagan gods, so long as they call on Jesus, into eternal paradise.
I will state this in a slow and plain voice, since this is how I am considered by some. The doctrine of the trinity was not even a part of the first century church. It was an invention of a conglomerate of paganism and Christianity, influenced through Roman god worship. It was creeded and accepted as orthodox doctrine in Nice in 325. Before this, the trinity was not an accepted doctrine. Suddenly, it became accepted.
Throughout the centuries, it has been the work of those in trinity god worship to silence the Oneness believers. They have worked throughout to make our numbers dwindle. When this was accomplished, they found that this truth could not be silenced. Finally, it seems their latest weapon has worked, and worked well to weaken the once firm conviction of Oneness churches and believers to their doctrine.
Implied acceptance.
They accepted us, saying we worship the same God, just see things differently. They encouraged us to do the same. We did.
Now, we see people more than ever accepting the trinity as a valid doctrine, and refusing to condemn this belief as heresy or sin. Those who do are now 'out of touch' or 'uneducated', and are cast aside, while the spirit of ecumenicalism continues to weaken the once firm foundation of truth that has kept the Church, the true Church, for almost 2000 years now.
I say all that to say this. You may consider me and others like me invalid and uneducated because we dare to take the Bible at it's word. You have that right, and are more than welcome to cast me and others like me out. But, remember this. Religious people are the hardest to convince of their faults because they 'know' they are right. But, the truth will grow beyond religious people, and in compassion, we will continue in truth.
Let me get this around my uneducated, invalid, and illegitimate mind. Suddenly we see a trinity is in Heaven, then it is not. We see those who believe in the trinity in Heaven, despite what scriptures says? Since when do we have the right to contradict what scripture clearly says? Who do we think we are?
I am sorry. I forgot. I am not as educated as some of you are. I am not as learned as you are. I am just a castaway. I am just a man who has read the Bible. Silly me. I thought it was the final word of God. I forgot how men's opinions override the scriptures, and we can welcome all who believe in false pagan gods, so long as they call on Jesus, into eternal paradise.
I will state this in a slow and plain voice, since this is how I am considered by some. The doctrine of the trinity was not even a part of the first century church. It was an invention of a conglomerate of paganism and Christianity, influenced through Roman god worship. It was creeded and accepted as orthodox doctrine in Nice in 325. Before this, the trinity was not an accepted doctrine. Suddenly, it became accepted.
Throughout the centuries, it has been the work of those in trinity god worship to silence the Oneness believers. They have worked throughout to make our numbers dwindle. When this was accomplished, they found that this truth could not be silenced. Finally, it seems their latest weapon has worked, and worked well to weaken the once firm conviction of Oneness churches and believers to their doctrine.
Implied acceptance.
They accepted us, saying we worship the same God, just see things differently. They encouraged us to do the same. We did.
Now, we see people more than ever accepting the trinity as a valid doctrine, and refusing to condemn this belief as heresy or sin. Those who do are now 'out of touch' or 'uneducated', and are cast aside, while the spirit of ecumenicalism continues to weaken the once firm foundation of truth that has kept the Church, the true Church, for almost 2000 years now.
I say all that to say this. You may consider me and others like me invalid and uneducated because we dare to take the Bible at it's word. You have that right, and are more than welcome to cast me and others like me out. But, remember this. Religious people are the hardest to convince of their faults because they 'know' they are right. But, the truth will grow beyond religious people, and in compassion, we will continue in truth.