The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument

[consapente89]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Thank you for saying this. It is actually the response I was hoping for. I thought you might be the one who would say it.

You see brother, we agree about something. We agree that a pastor is a gift to the church, from God. His purpose is to edify the church. Right so far?

But then it heads downhill from there. You think there should only be one in a church. I think there should be many. Why do I think so? Because, we have this wonderful gift from God, who knows uniquely how to bless us, so why not a dozen pastors?

You provided the answer. You seem to believe (I’m not wanting to put words in your mouth, but this seems to be what your post implies) that the pastor gets ten percent of your income. So, if you have ten pastors, and you give them ten percent each, of your income, you have nothing left. Don’t worry, I get the math part.

This is the unintended consequences of false doctrine. I have repeatedly invited you to post scripture supporting a pastor’s entitlement to tithes (not offerings or support, but specifically tithes) and you have, of course failed to do so, because, of course, such scripture doesn’t exist in OT or New.

But you teach and believe it anyway. And then you point out that the people can hardly afford one pastor, much less five or ten. But . . . If we weren’t having to follow the false doctrine of tithing, the affordability problem goes away. And the church can enjoy the good gifts of God without the man made restrictions of false doctrine.

God bless.

That makes absolutely NO sense. Quit preaching tithes and a church will be able to support more pastors than they can if you preach tithes?! So... the bi-vocational pastor that HAS to supplement his income in order to support his family because there are not enough funds generated in the church, all he has to do is quit preaching tithes and the church will be able to afford even MORE ministry?!

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by consapente89

That makes absolutely NO sense. Quit preaching tithes and a church will be able to support more pastors than they can if you preach tithes?! So... the bi-vocational pastor that HAS to supplement his income in order to support his family because there are not enough funds generated in the church, all he has to do is quit preaching tithes and the church will be able to afford even MORE ministry?!

Allow me to break it down for you. Let’s get away from pastors, and substitute singers instead. (There are actually verses that support singers receiving tithes, unlike pastors.) So, if we were tithing to singers, we probably couldn’t afford a choir. But since we don’t typically do so, many churches have a choir loft full of singers. If you want to see the singers in a church diminish down to, say one, reinstate the doctrine of tithing to singers. As it is, most singers/choir members aren’t paid to sing. So most churches have plenty of singers.

What part doesn’t make sense?

[TakingDominion]

You don't have or want a Pastor in your life. That much makes sense to me.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

You don't have or want a Pastor in your life. That much makes sense to me.

Brother Nicodemus accuses me of wanting many, you accuse me of wanting none. Somebody is mistaken.

By the way, I am advocating for more pastors. Which doesn’t seem to fit your conclusion. I am responding to Brother Nicodemus saying we can’t afford more pastors. Pastors are a gift from God. But we can only afford one?

Salvation is a free gift from God. Will it get to the point that we can’t afford salvation?

[TakingDominion]

You say you want many, but our opinion of a Pastor seems very different. I'm saying you don't want a Pastor that can tell you what not to do. You don't want a Pastor that can set a standard over you and your family. You don't want a Pastor to submit your life to. You want a dozen men that don't receive their income from the church. Men too afraid to preach anything that will step on your toes. Who makes final decisions in that type of church? That is a train wreck. God's design has always been one man as his leader and authority over a congregation. Yes, have other elders and teachers in the church, but there can only be one Pastor or shepherd over the congregation. Your problem isn't tithing. Your problem is authority.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I didn’t direct this comment to Brother Blume. This comment was to Brother Nicodemus. Who advocates and teaches a different doctrine on tithing than Brother Blume.

My apologies. I was reading Bro. Blume's posts and must have glossed right over Brother Nic.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

You say you want many, but our opinion of a Pastor seems very different. I'm saying you don't want a Pastor that can tell you what not to do. You don't want a Pastor that can set a standard over you and your family. You don't want a Pastor to submit your life to. You want a dozen men that don't receive their income from the church. Men too afraid to preach anything that will step on your toes. Who makes final decisions in that type of church? That is a train wreck. God's design has always been one man as his leader and authority over a congregation. Yes, have other elders and teachers in the church, but there can only be one Pastor or shepherd over the congregation. Your problem isn't tithing. Your problem is authority.

Could you perhaps post scripture?

I have some questions for you.

Since the plan of God is for one man in authority over the church (as you believe). Can you show me examples in the scripture of this design?

Who was the one man who was in authority (as pastor) over the church of Thessalonica?

Rome?

Jerusalem?

Ephesus?

Jerusalem?

I’m not trying to discredit you. If what you say is true, and it has always been God’s design as you say, it shouldn’t be any problem for you to name ALL of the pastors of the New Testament churches.

I’ll wait.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Ehud

My apologies. I was reading Bro. Blume's posts and must have glossed right over Brother Nic.

Entirely understandable. I’m not mad.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

You say you want many, but our opinion of a Pastor seems very different. I'm saying you don't want a Pastor that can tell you what not to do. You don't want a Pastor that can set a standard over you and your family. You don't want a Pastor to submit your life to. You want a dozen men that don't receive their income from the church. Men too afraid to preach anything that will step on your toes. Who makes final decisions in that type of church? That is a train wreck. God's design has always been one man as his leader and authority over a congregation. Yes, have other elders and teachers in the church, but there can only be one Pastor or shepherd over the congregation. Your problem isn't tithing. Your problem is authority.

This has conversation has been going on for a couple months. He is a saint in a church that I guess from what he posts, the Pastor doesn’t accept tithes. He may accept offerings, Tithemeister hasn’t said I believe on the offering part. Now, he says many pastors would be a blessing, its not biblical for one man to be the authority of a local assembly. He also clams tithing to a Pastor is not biblical and therefore we shouldnt do it. I’m a Pastor that believes the Pastor should be full time if he is able to, not because he is in debit and cant afford to.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Entirely understandable. I’m not mad.