If You Sin Are You Lost Until You Repent?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This can be answered with a simple....NO.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

If you are drunk, or high, or in the process of theft, lying, cussing, participating vicariously in TV fornication when Jesus returns will you be saved?

No.

But your question begs a question in my mind. If a Vet is on prescription meds and "zoned out" in a medically induced "daze" or mental "haze", will they be saved when Jesus returns?

Does being on medication get a pass?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

While repentance is born of a Godly sorrow that brings a change in mind regarding one's life choices, grace is the empowering aspect of salvation. Grace gives the believer unmerited favor in the eyes of God, and such unmerited favor provides the empowerment necessary to strive for sinlessness through the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Knowing that you have unmerited divine favor, and that God's very own Spirit has come to abide in you and how that abiding Spirit has changed the very nature of your inner man (spirit) is exciting. Within you, your inner man (spirit) is sinless. Your spirit has partaken in the divine nature. That's right. He's already sinless ontologically. Now the problem is... your carnal mind and your flesh. You don't have to count your misdeeds and pray you aren't lost. Nor do you have to "try harder". Both of these efforts will end in discouragement. The sinlessness Christ calls us to isn't about effort, it is about surrender. A surrender to this sinless abiding nature in our spirits. A surrender to an ontological identity. A surrender to the Holy Spirit in you.

Allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you into being conformed into the image of Jesus. He's the standard. He's the prototype. He's your model and example. Not a list of do's and don'ts. Jesus. Be Jesus. Allow yourself to become a living extension of Jesus (branch of the truth vine). Wrestle with your sinful inclinations not by focusing on resisting the sinful desires... but by being a living extension of Jesus Himself. Don't try to resist the behavior to over come it... keep your focus on being Jesus. This will cause you to be conformed into His image and likeness. Keep the focus on imitating Jesus.

It isn't a matter of changing your behaviors.
It's a matter of experiencing and living out a changed state of being.

If you have the Holy Spirit, you are one spirit with Jesus. Allow yourself to focus on this new identity, this oneness, and you'll discover that sinlessness and holiness is an ontological reality that impacts your thoughts, choices, and actions more than any mere effort of will to resist a sinful temptation. Now are you... a son of God.

Sounds like yoga to me.

Or any other form of mystical humanistic self improvement.

Oh, and your writing style is disturbing. "That's right." Plus the little "..." pauses for dramatic effect. Sounds like attempted mind control cult talk. I can hear Timothy Leary's voice reading your script, or Baghwan Rajneesh, or Prabupadha, or Kenneth Copeland.

I hate to be so harsh, but I keep seeing a very common theme with you. I've been seeing it for several years now. Others have noticed it as well.

For the readers, I ask you very simply, where is any of this in the Bible? I mean, where did the apostles teach this mystical self hypnotism and mental control stuff as the way to overcome sin?

The apostle Paul in Romans ch 6 lays it out very simply:

Romans 6:1-23 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (7) For he that is dead is freed from sin. (8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. (13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? (17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. (18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. (20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. (21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. (22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. (23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here's some promises from that dusty Old Testament nobody likes to read very much:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Here's some commands:

Ezekiel 18:30-32 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. (31) Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (32) For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Deuteronomy 10:12-17 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, (13) To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? (14) Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. (15) Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. (16) Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. (17) For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

[Aquila]

You just constructed an accusation of the entire point, then rebuked it, and sought to correct it. lol

Let's look more closely at what I'm saying.

We read:

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Repentance brings a state of mind. A focus. A manner of living. We are transformed by the renewing of our minds, that we might prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God. This is done through prayer and the study of the Word of God. As we do this, we are "conformed" into the image, or likeness, of Christ. As we do this, we put on the mind of Christ and keep the mind of Christ. By surrendering to this, we "put on Christ" and overcome sin:

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

God promised to write His law on our hearts, this doesn't mean that God literally writes characters on a bodily organ. This means that God will impress His law (His desires) upon the core of our being, the very seat of our desires, that we might desire what He desires:

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This will cause us to desire to yield (to surrender to, not work to attain) ourselves unto righteousness as servants of righteousness. Notice the language of yielding, surrendering, and even the reference to mindfulness through "reckoning":

Romans 6:1-23
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We reckon ourselves...
We yield ourselves...

This isn't about effort. It's about metanoia, repentance, "a change of mind" and perspective and a living surrender to the new nature that abides in us in the Holy Ghost. It flows like water (living water) and brings an easy and peaceful holiness of mind and spirit. It isn't about feverish trying, exhausting attempts at earning, and brings no discouragement. It is a realization of who and what we really are in Christ. It is truly changing the inside and allowing the reality of our identity in Christ to set in and effect our will, desires, and actions. We put on Christ, seek the mind of Christ, and reckon ourselves dead to sin.

Legalistic religion will never grasp the depth of supernatural living. Holiness is about allowing Christ to live in and through you. It is about being a son of God.

The ancients called this, "theosis". It is sanctification through a very real and experiential union with Christ, through the Holy Spirit. One cannot realize their being one spirit with Christ, and not be transformed into a very real and abiding Christ-likeness.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

"You don't have to count your misdeeds and pray you aren't lost. Nor do you have to "try harder". Both of these efforts will end in discouragement. The sinlessness Christ calls us to isn't about effort, it is about surrender. A surrender to this sinless abiding nature in our spirits. A surrender to an ontological identity."

Wrestle with your sinful inclinations not by focusing on resisting the sinful desires... but by being a living extension of Jesus Himself. Don't try to resist the behavior to over come it... keep your focus on being Jesus. This will cause you to be conformed into His image and likeness. Keep the focus on imitating Jesus.

"It isn't a matter of changing your behaviors.It's a matter of experiencing and living out a changed state of being."

(First of btw this isn't all you said, before you try to mischaracterize what I'm saying by saying I misquoted you. I pulled these statements out, because we need to discuss this.)

Aquila I don't know what charismatic, or motivational speaker taught you this stuff,but there is absolutely no Bible for this. Your not ever going to reach sinless perfection without trying. No one including the Apostle Paul, Peter, James, or John just stumbled on to it. While we are "changed from glory to glory, and faith to faith", it comes from failure and a true change of mind.

While we do have Christ's righteousness imputed to us, yes that's true. But, until more than anything we hunger and thirst for God and His righteousness more than anything else, we will not walk in righteousness before Him. Not only will we not be able to walk in righteous in His sight, but our heart will definitely not be perfect before Him either! Matthew 5:6 "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

There is no casual transformation, well I'll take that back there is, but it's a reverting back, but not making progression! James 2:17-24 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

All that Martin Luther reformed theology you and Jason B.are leaning on, is ecumenical false doctrine. Let me say this "no one is just one day going to stumble into heaven!" Even just the idea itself, is in it's essence ridiculous. So telling people that they just have to become "one" with the Holy Spirit is a half truth. I say half truth because you do, but it's not going to just rise up on you, and make you walk right. God is a gentleman, and He will let you do whatever you want. If it's good enough for you, it's good enough for Him. While He may try to curve you In some ways, if your desire is not right your not going to go the way He's leading!

Grace is not only unmerited favor towards sin, but it's also unmerited favor towards the ability to be able to do what you couldn't do just in yourself. First off without the Holy Ghost, you will only receive the first part which apparently people like Martin Luther did experience; although the second part they didn't even believe in, because they didn't believe in the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues. Grace is going to meet you at your desire, each day I need to strive to be as Psalms 42:1-2 says "As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. [2] My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?" If not, then I'm never going to experience what its referring to in Psalms 37:4 "Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart." He's not going to just give me my carnal desires, but only of the yearnings that come from me desiring to delight myself in Him!

While I agreed with some of what you said. Some of that stuff, is no more then Psychological Psychobabble. All this you need to just sit back and let God do the work is not going to work. I seen you referenced Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." The funny thing about that is, you will not ever even get that until you obey Romans 12:1 "ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." While people love to bring up 12:2, it doesn't come independent of 12:1. You miss any part of the process and you will be unbalanced, and you will never come to fruition. There is no program or shortcut to the things of God. He will never be a plan B, you have a plan b mentality you should just go with plan b, because faith in God doesn't work that way. It's all or nothing, He wants everything, and when your desire is there all the rest of this stuff will cease to matter. That's true freedom in Christ, when you give Him all of you, before that your just trying to fit Him in a box, and create a program to reach Him. Which will never work!

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Esaias

No, there is not a simple answer. Suppose they confess but don't repent?

To try to clarify the kind of believer I'm talking about, let's say that someone like you or Michael the Disciple, i.e., serious and sincere believers, fails to fulfill one of the Lord's commands in the Sermon on the Mount. At that very moment are you lost until you seek to turn from that sin and make it right with God? This does seem to be an issue of giving a yes-no answer followed by Scriptural support. Though, admittedly, this does seem to be a difficult question, since I'm not sure it is addressed exactly this way in Scripture.

I have found that most people wanting a simple yes or no answer to certain questions already have their mind made up, and aren't searching for Scripture truth, but affirmation of their beliefs. Not saying that's the case here, just an observation from almost half a decade of living among humans.

The only thing I have my mind made up on is that a person is deceived if he thinks he never sins. Someone thinking this is basically saying that Jesus's direction that we pray for forgiveness of our debts has no meaning for him since he doesn't need it.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I answered your question. I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

So in other words, it seems you believe that the moment you cease to flawlessly carry out the Word of God, e.g., all that Jesus commands in the Sermon on the Mount, you are rejected by the Father, are no longer justified, and are going to hell until you make it right with God. Correct?

If this is so, how is your salvation not dependent on your works--on your ability to obey--and not grace? As long as you obey you are saved, but the moment you don't you are lost.

And it goes without saying I am not at all talking about someone who is not truly committed to Lord and seeking to fulfill his will. I'm only thinking of committed believers.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Costeon

To try to clarify the kind of believer I'm talking about, let's say that someone like you or Michael the Disciple, i.e., serious and sincere believers, fails to fulfill one of the Lord's commands in the Sermon on the Mount. At that very moment are you lost until you seek to turn from that sin and make it right with God? This does seem to be an issue of giving a yes-no answer followed by Scriptural support. Though, admittedly, this does seem to be a difficult question, since I'm not sure it is addressed exactly this way in Scripture.



The only thing I have my mind made up on is that a person is deceived if he thinks he never sins. Someone thinking this is basically saying that Jesus's direction that we pray for forgiveness of our debts has no meaning for him since he doesn't need it.

If you have your pantry stocked does that mean Jesus' direction that you pray for your daily bread has no meaning for you?

You say if a person thinks they never sin they are deceived. Can a person not be sinning at any one moment?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Your not ever going to reach sinless perfection without trying.

With all your "trying", have you reached sinless perfection yet?

There are those who will spend their lives feverishly trying to be sinlessly perfect. And then, there are those precious few who simply are sinlessly perfect.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Costeon

So in other words, it seems you believe that the moment you cease to flawlessly carry out the Word of God, e.g., all that Jesus commands in the Sermon on the Mount, you are rejected by the Father, are no longer justified, and are going to hell until you make it right with God. Correct?

If this is so, how is your salvation not dependent on your works--on your ability to obey--and not grace? As long as you obey you are saved, but the moment you don't you are lost.

And it goes without saying I am not at all talking about someone who is not truly committed to Lord and seeking to fulfill his will. I'm only thinking of committed believers.

But why not? Is our salvation dependent on being "truly committed to the Lord and seeking to fulfill His will"? How is THAT not a case of "salvation dependent on our works and not grace"?