Help! Tormented dreams

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by ModestMama

Ah now i am confused. So deliverance ministries aren't biblical?
If not then, I am all wrong about what I felt God was/is leading me to....which means i have no idea whose voice i hear ...ahhh this is so disheartening!

This is what I have seen and experienced, in a nutshell.

The church assembles, and visitors sometimes come to the meeting. The people of God pray and sing and begin to worship the Lord. The power and presence of God envelops His people. The visitor feels or experiences the presence of God, too.

In whatever way God chooses, He begins to personally deal with and minister to the visitor beyond any natural or mortal means, through His Spirit.

The person begins to cry and weep, feeling for the first time the sheer love and joy of the Heavenly Father, and they find themselves overcome with a desire to be saved.

And many do, just like that. They repent, receiving the Holy Spirit and are immersed.

But everyone once in awhile, the same thing happens, but unbeknownst to most of the members of the assembly, the visitor is in a supernaturally created impure state. An evil spirit has a hold on or over them. Sometimes the visitor doesn't even know it.

God in His mercy, leads mature, dedicated and sanctified members of the local assembly to an understanding that something is amiss with the visitor. Wise leadership will take over and call for repentance and submission to God and His Word.

If the visitor wants to be saved and set free, now is their chance to humble themselves before God and be delivered. If they reject the call to repentance and submission to God and His Word, they might walk out, or sit down, or cause a commotion or distraction to try and interfere with what God is doing.

If the person humbles themselves and begins to confess to God and repents, mature, seasoned saints will move to where the visitor is sitting, and begin to minister to him or her through the charismata of the Holy Spirit.

God in His mercy will then allow the evil spirit to show itself, or manifest, and it will become clear that it needs to be cast out. At this point, if and only if the visitor truly wants to be free and is completely willing to renounce Satan and his ways in their life, will such a person be delivered.

If the visitor isn't willing to surrender completely to God, and wants to keep some of their sin and rebellion, no amount of "In Jesus' Name!" casting out is going to change the visitor's impure state.

But when the person does desire God and is willing to give themselves over to Him all the way, it's by natural course, as a normal part of the process of coming to God, the power of Christ kicks the evil spirit to the curb. And as if often the case, as it was in the Gospels, the departing evil spirit will try to humiliate or injure the person from whom it is being cast. One last hurrah, so to speak, to mar the image of God and make the visitor feel too condemned in heart to trust in the Lord.

But, no matter. Away the foul thing goes, and God goes about filling that person with the Holy Spirit. They speak with other tongues and magnify God. The saints rejoice and shout and clap their hands to the Lord. Someone sits down with the visitor afterward, for a few moments and discusses being immersed in the name of the Lord Jesus, showing them in the Holy Scriptures the purpose and method of baptism. They agree. They get changed, are led to the water, and in they go. They are immersed in the name of Jesus, all sin is remitted, and another name gets written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

In my experience, there ought not be much more than this going on. Deliverance should simply be a normal part of the Apostolic Church experience, no different than evangelism, worship, study and devotion, or etc.

BUT! Because this type of thing seems to be more and more rare, the Church has lost track of how to be involved in how the Lord draws and saves the demoniac, so that alternative methods become attractive and interesting. Much damage is done when this happens.

So, if the Lord wants you to be involved in this aspect of church life and ministry, there isn't a whole lot you have to do or study. Just as Esaias pointed out is sufficient. Become one with the Lord through intimacy and relationship, by praying, particularly in the Spirit, by studying and TRUSTING His Word, and as needed, fasting. Otherwise, just continue to be a part of your local assembly, sing and dance and worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness, and whatever God wants to do with fall into place.

[houston]

Originally Posted by ModestMama

Yea none of that is what i envisioned in a deliverance ministry.
My thoughts were just having the spirit of discernment in use and wait for God to guide me , if need be. Nothing i pictured is as you describe, thats cooky. All glory belongs to God.

That is where you end up (eventually) if you get into the stuff Aquila posted.

The people are nuts. You'll come across people who are (supposedly) saved that need an exorcism. And it's probably their 5th or 6th exorcism since they were (supposedly) saved. I corresponded with a kid who thought every burp and yawn released demons. You CAN'T correct these people. As Easaias stated, they (claim to) have this special knowledge that isn't found in the Bible anywhere.

IMO, many of these people are anointed with nothing other than the spirit of pithon/divination as was the damsel in the book of Acts. It can sound, look, and feel like the Holy Ghost if you seek chills and thrills and have no discernment.
Pithon came after me shortly after the vague incident (my fault) that I mentioned earlier in the thread.

[ModestMama]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

This is what I have seen and experienced, in a nutshell.

The church assembles, and visitors sometimes come to the meeting. The people of God pray and sing and begin to worship the Lord. The power and presence of God envelops His people. The visitor feels or experiences the presence of God, too.

In whatever way God chooses, He begins to personally deal with and minister to the visitor beyond any natural or mortal means, through His Spirit.

The person begins to cry and weep, feeling for the first time the sheer love and joy of the Heavenly Father, and they find themselves overcome with a desire to be saved.

And many do, just like that. They repent, receiving the Holy Spirit and are immersed.

But everyone once in awhile, the same thing happens, but unbeknownst to most of the members of the assembly, the visitor is in a supernaturally created impure state. An evil spirit has a hold on or over them. Sometimes the visitor doesn't even know it.

God in His mercy, leads mature, dedicated and sanctified members of the local assembly to an understanding that something is amiss with the visitor. Wise leadership will take over and call for repentance and submission to God and His Word.

If the visitor wants to be saved and set free, now is their chance to humble themselves before God and be delivered. If they reject the call to repentance and submission to God and His Word, they might walk out, or sit down, or cause a commotion or distraction to try and interfere with what God is doing.

If the person humbles themselves and begins to confess to God and repents, mature, seasoned saints will move to where the visitor is sitting, and begin to minister to him or her through the charismata of the Holy Spirit.

God in His mercy will then allow the evil spirit to show itself, or manifest, and it will become clear that it needs to be cast out. At this point, if and only if the visitor truly wants to be free and is completely willing to renounce Satan and his ways in their life, will such a person be delivered.

If the visitor isn't willing to surrender completely to God, and wants to keep some of their sin and rebellion, no amount of "In Jesus' Name!" casting out is going to change the visitor's impure state.

But when the person does desire God and is willing to give themselves over to Him all the way, it's by natural course, as a normal part of the process of coming to God, the power of Christ kicks the evil spirit to the curb. And as if often the case, as it was in the Gospels, the departing evil spirit will try to humiliate or injure the person from whom it is being cast. One last hurrah, so to speak, to mar the image of God and make the visitor feel too condemned in heart to trust in the Lord.

But, no matter. Away the foul thing goes, and God goes about filling that person with the Holy Spirit. They speak with other tongues and magnify God. The saints rejoice and shout and clap their hands to the Lord. Someone sits down with the visitor afterward, for a few moments and discusses being immersed in the name of the Lord Jesus, showing them in the Holy Scriptures the purpose and method of baptism. They agree. They get changed, are led to the water, and in they go. They are immersed in the name of Jesus, all sin is remitted, and another name gets written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

In my experience, there ought not be much more than this going on. Deliverance should simply be a normal part of the Apostolic Church experience, no different than evangelism, worship, study and devotion, or etc.

BUT! Because this type of thing seems to be more and more rare, the Church has lost track of how to be involved in how the Lord draws and saves the demoniac, so that alternative methods become attractive and interesting. Much damage is done when this happens.

So, if the Lord wants you to be involved in this aspect of church life and ministry, there isn't a whole lot you have to do or study. Just as Esaias pointed out is sufficient. Become one with the Lord through intimacy and relationship, by praying, particularly in the Spirit, by studying and TRUSTING His Word, and as needed, fasting. Otherwise, just continue to be a part of your local assembly, sing and dance and worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness, and whatever God wants to do with fall into place.

Yes. Thats exactly how i picutred it. Although i know i replied to Aquilla earlier about "not expecting no less" than the way he described although i dont see trying to agitate spirits or "live for it" would be correct. I was more agreeing to the seriousness of it as opposed to just playing with it.
I have a deep desire and burden to help others. I want to see others to be set free and victorious of their problems or situations. Alot of times i feel so burdened and full Iove(not your typical feelings of love..this is s a divine love that goes deeper than anything ive ever known) i want to open others eyes and hearts to the depths they can get to in God.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by ModestMama

Yes. Thats exactly how i picutred it. Although i know i replied to Aquilla earlier about "not expecting no less" than the way he described although i dont see trying to agitate spirits or "live for it" would be correct. I was more agreeing to the seriousness of it as opposed to just playing with it.
I have a deep desire and burden to help others. I want to see others to be set free and victorious of their problems or situations. Alot of times i feel so burdened and full Iove(not your typical feelings of love..this is s a divine love that goes deeper than anything ive ever known) i want to open others eyes and hearts to the depths they can get to in God.

Your church is blessed to have you with them.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by ModestMama

Yes. Thats exactly how i picutred it. Although i know i replied to Aquilla earlier about "not expecting no less" than the way he described although i dont see trying to agitate spirits or "live for it" would be correct. I was more agreeing to the seriousness of it as opposed to just playing with it.
I have a deep desire and burden to help others. I want to see others to be set free and victorious of their problems or situations. Alot of times i feel so burdened and full Iove(not your typical feelings of love..this is s a divine love that goes deeper than anything ive ever known) i want to open others eyes and hearts to the depths they can get to in God.

2 Corinthians 1:3-4,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

It may be, that whatever happened to or with you 15 years ago, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is preparing you to first find comfort in and from Him, so you can become a comfort to others just as He was and is, to you.

If this passion He is stirring in you is as intense and profound as you describe, there's no limitation to how much the Lord God can and will use you to preach the Gospel to the poor, to heal the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to those who are captives and the recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty all those who are oppressed, and, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.

Jesus was anointed to do all of this, and He has given us the same anointing from the Holy Spirit to do the same thing. Go with God in peace, with His blessings, Sister.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by ModestMama

Ah now i am confused. So deliverance ministries aren't biblical?
If not then, I am all wrong about what I felt God was/is leading me to....which means i have no idea whose voice i hear ...ahhh this is so disheartening!

Most so called "deliverance ministries" are filled with individuals who are in more need of a delivery than the one they are supposedly trying to deliver.

How many attempts did Jesus take to cast of Legion?

How many attempts did it take Jesus to cast out the demons from the young boy?

Good, so if you have to have a group of people jumping and sweating around you trying to get the job done? The odds are pretty good that they showed up to work without Jesus. Houston said it pretty clear, and put it simple. You were cleaned up of all the mess when you converted through the power of Jesus name. All things work for the GOOD. So, therefore there is nothing bad. There is only good when we are called according to Jesus' purposes. Be of good cheer Jesus has already overcame it all.

[Aquila]

You guys are really hard on a guy. Let me share a little of my understanding before y'all judge me too harshly. You might find that whatever you're assuming about me and my understanding is wrong. You might discover that while I might understand some unfamiliar concepts, to those in the UPCI or other organizations, the concepts are indeed biblical. You might discover that you've known and understood these things for a long time, but you've never actually put definitive words to it.

Once one identifies (or discerns through the Holy Ghost) that they are dealing with an unclean spirit it doesn't take long to cast it out. It can be cast out in under a minute actually. If it isn't... the problem is lack of faith. When confronted with such a circumstance the spirit can only be uprooted by prayer and fasting. In deliverance ministries, based on my experience, what can take the most time is confirming if there is indeed an evil spirit present. If the Holy Ghost reveals it through the gift of discernment, one can know instantly. But if the gift of discernment is silent, deliverance ministers don't just walk in shooting in every direction hoping to hit something. They want to confirm that a spirit is actually there, they pray and wait for the spirit to manifest. Jesus never had this problem. And if one's full of the Spirit, this isn't much of a problem at all. If Jesus showed up, evil spirits would just cry out in fear and make themselves known. When awaiting confirmation of the presence of an evil spirit, the spirit will typically begin revealing its presence by virtue of it being tormented or unsettled by the presence of Christ in you.

And so that leads me to a rather simple question. Can anyone share with me specifically why prayer and fasting are necessary? What dynamics are at play?

And while many might not realize it, the following is very important for the conceptualization of what we're dealing with. This text is quite interesting if we read it slowly and contemplate it:

Luke 6:17-20 (KJV)
17 And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases;
18 And they that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed.
19 And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all.
20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

We see this "virtue" in Mark's Gospel:

Mark 5:27-30
27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

What is meant by "virtue"?

What is this "virtue"?

What does it mean that "virtue" went out of him, and healed them all?



The very same Greek word is used in Acts 1:8:

Act 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This is occult garbage designed to deceive people into superstition and an occult-ized mindset.

Are you saying that the listed issues are not signs of possible demonic oppression?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It's always interesting to me how much people know about evil spirits, and only ever and often "discern" them, but how little they know about, and only and often discern regarding righteous spirits, that is, angels.

You have a good point. But it's a matter of perspective. The knowledge regarding evil spirits that people have is often based on their study of the Bible, their study of other books and materials, and personal experience. So we should expect some variation of understanding regarding the topic. Now, we can either denounce anyone and everyone who doesn't think exactly like us... or... we can talk as brothers and see what insights we can gain from one another.

Now, what I wrote about above is regarding knowledge and study. However, when we deal with the discerning spirits through the Holy Ghost, all of that goes out the window. First, the gifts often work differently for different individuals. For some, they claim they can "see" spirits in something akin to a "vision" imparted to the soul. Others claim they can "hear" spirits. This is much like an audio-like "hearing" in their soul. Yet others claim they can "sense" or "feel" spirits. This is like an impression of the "feeling of meaning" as opposed to a vision or audio like impression. Each describes a sudden impression of a spirit's nature, intention, and/or activities upon the spiritual senses of the saint of God. Think of it this way, your outer man (body) has five senses. Well, your inner man has corresponding inner senses. One can see, hear, taste, touch, and even smell in the spirit. Some preachers have said that they smelled sulfur or stench when in the presence of an unclean spirit. Now, if you or I were next to them, we'd probably not smell a thing. It's the senses of their inner man being activated by the Spirit as it imparts awareness through what is commonly called the gift of discernment. I normally "feel" spirits. I've seen and heard them on occasion. I was at Meijer, a grocery chain, shopping. I was cutting through the isle that had alcohol on one side and there was a woman shopping for beer or something. She was on the skinny side, maybe in her mid 40's. As I approached her I heard the loud buzzing sound of cicadas. As she turned and smiled at me, I had a very brief vision in my mind of what looked like thousands of insects crawling under her skin. And as fast as it came to me, it was gone. So, I smiled back and invited her to church. I gave her a card and told her a little about it. Now... I could feel the resistance in her. And I discerned that my role there was to only sow seed. I prayed that night that my invitation aid in the Lord gaining the increase.

The Holy Spirit generally doesn't set us down and impart knowledge on the finer details of evil spirits. It normally comes through years of study and experience. The Holy Spirit normally moves and reveals things in the "now" as necessary. And, as I said before, this means we should expect a broad range of perspectives and understandings in this area.

As for discerning angels. It does happen. It isn't as common. And people typically criticize people just as harshly as they would anything else they shared. lol

I've told many a young man who was new in the Lord to stop focusing on the Kingdom of Satan and get your mind on Jesus. It's amazing how easy it is to get caught up in this stuff and get sidetracked.

Yes, anyone new in the Lord should focus on Jesus. But at some point, some individuals will feel a calling into the ministry of deliverance, even if that's not what they call it in their church. Jesus plainly said,

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

We should be known for:

- Preaching the Gospel.
- Baptizing converts.
- Casting out devils.
- Speaking in tongues.
- Taking up serpents (having divine protection from natural predators).
- Drinking any deadly thing (having divine protection from anything consumed).
- Laying hands upon and healing the sick.

Why are we so troubled by anyone who feels called to a ministry doing one of the very things Jesus said we'd be known for?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by ModestMama

I can see your point, however i believe he is going detailed with it because he once was in a deliverance ministry and becuase i had mentioned that I had feelings that the Lord is wanting to use me in that area as well.

Bingo. I'd typically not elaborate on any of this. Just something in your original post struck me as indicating the possible presence of a spirit.