Genesis - Who is our image?

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Chan

No, it is not a typographical error. Spelling "their" as "thier" is a typographical error. Typing a different word that doesn't even have the same meaning is not a typographical error. Also, the following is not a typographical error: "and if He tells an inanimate object to do something, it doesn't have to be moved by an external force to complete the command." Notice also that you said, "The angels didn't help God create anything, but the dirt did."

Yes, it was a typo, whether you agree or not makes no difference to me. You continue keeping God in your box by believing that if He commands an inanimate object to do something, that object cannot move on its own, but must be moved by God Himself to complete the command. There is no scriptural support for that in any way. The Bible says, With God, ALL things are possible. You appear to deny that.

No, the wind did not "participate."

Do the wind continued to blow? No, it stopped, just as it was commanded to do.

You're really grasping at straws here just to try to hold on to your silly notion that the dirt somehow did the act of creating Adam. No, the Red Sea was not a participant, it was acted upon. And, no, the Bible does not say that if we don't praise Him the rocks will cry out.

You are too humanity minded, Chan. God is greater than what you think He is capable of doing and you just don't seem to get it. And no, the dirt wasn't alone, but without it, Adam wouldn't have been made....from the dirt, that is.

And you are correct. It doesn't say rocks, it says stones.

Luke 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.


I get the point. I'm sure you don't and are ready to give me a sermon on how I took that completely out of context, yada, yada, yada.....

Whatever..

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't know...what does the bible say? From all we see of Angels in the bible they do not appear to be robots.

No, but with the exception of Lucifer and his crew, it doesn't appear that the angels did anything without God telling them to do it....in fact, not once is it recorded that angels did anything of their own will with the exception mentioned.

The Bible doesn't go into detail, really, but since God is all-knowing, I wonder if it was His plan for them to do what they did and He sent them a delusion (as He does with humans) to make them do that. I don't know....it's just a thought.

God also knows what we will do, using that line of reasoning we also do not have our own wills

It's not exactly the same line of reasoning when you read my explanation above. Yet, I can understand what you are saying. I just don't see in scripture where humans only do what God bids them to do, even though He knows what they will do before they do it. He continues to allow us to mess up though. The angels don't get that luxury.

As I explained already, one word used in Genesis means to create in the way only God can do and the other means to make something from what was already created, which is something we do all the time. Like building a house. God created and made in Genesis 1-2

I thought we were talking about the first chapter of Genesis? There was nothing created from something already there, except the dirt, however, dirt cannot make organs, tissue, bone, blood, and all that goes along with making a human being. That part was totally miraculous and genuine creation. It's not like Him making clothes from a goat skin...something that already existed and wasn't altered in a supernatural way.

I read the article again, and I just find it too complex for me to sort out. I am not brilliant enough to understand exactly what he's talking about, and some of it I just don't agree with. He wasn't about only going after the Hebrew word origins, but English as well.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I never said there were scriptures that said "angels were made in the image and likeness of God". I looked too and never saw a verse where Jesus said "I am God", but there are other ways to point that fact out.


You stated it as a fact, not an opinion. That is why I asked you for scripture


huh? Let me requote what you just requoted.

The hebrew grammar has God speaking to someone other than himself

And again I'll ask was it someone or something? For instance, do you ever speak to your vehicle as if it were a person? How do we know it was SOMEONE?

Nobody. God did not use a plural pronoun. When someone says "us" that means more than one person usually. It does not mean one person and one plot of land .That simple grammar.

Not necessarily more than one PERSON....I talk to myself often and use 'us' and 'we' when talking just to me! LOL!

I paint once in a while, and I've often looked at the house and looked at my tools and said, "well, let's see what we can do to this place'. Yet, I'm the only person there. I also used 'us' when speaking to the paint supplies.

I am a nurse, and when someone complains of chest pain, I say to them, "let's take a listen' and my stethescope and I work together as a team.

Or maybe I'm just crazy and nobody else has done that........

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Exactly

An angel volunteered in 2 Kings I think it is, to be a lying spirit in the mouth of a false prophet

The only passage I found that sounds like the above wasn't an angel, and the Lord is credited with putting the lying spirit in the mouth of the false prophet.

1 Kings 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

The same thing is mentioned in 2 Chronicles 18. If you find something else, please post it.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

No, but with the exception of Lucifer and his crew, it doesn't appear that the angels did anything without God telling them to do it....in fact, not once is it recorded that angels did anything of their own will with the exception mentioned.

That does not show they don't have will. That shows they don't act on their own will. LIke I said, Angels are not robots or puppets. To not have a will is to be a non living being. Will means In fact angels have desire

1Pe 1:12 To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us, they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who have preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Next we see angels able to make a choice and change their minds
Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at evening. And Lot sat in the gate of Sodom. And Lot rose up to meet them when he saw them. And he bowed himself with his face toward the ground,
Gen 19:2 and said, Behold now, my lords, please turn into your servant's house and stay all night, and wash your feet, and you shall rise up early and go your way. And they said, No, but we will stay in the street.
Gen 19:3 But he urgently pressed on them, and they turned in to him and entered into his house. And he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

Again and again, angels are not depicted as mindless, soulless automatons. Just because they do the will of God, just as we are supposed to, does not mean they don't have a will of their own. And the mere fact that you acknowledge the issue with Lucifer should be enough to recognize what sort of nature angels have

The Bible doesn't go into detail, really, but since God is all-knowing, I wonder if it was His plan for them to do what they did and He sent them a delusion (as He does with humans) to make them do that. I don't know....it's just a thought.

That doesn't mean they don't have a will though

It's not exactly the same line of reasoning when you read my explanation above. Yet, I can understand what you are saying. I just don't see in scripture where humans only do what God bids them to do, even though He knows what they will do before they do it. He continues to allow us to mess up though. The angels don't get that luxury.

Up until the fall Adam and Eve did only what God bid them to do. Angels don't have to content with a fallen human nature though. BTW when Adam and Eve did fall and God said "Look, the man has become as one of us" who was God talking to?

I thought we were talking about the first chapter of Genesis? There was nothing created from something already there, except the dirt, however, dirt cannot make organs, tissue, bone, blood, and all that goes along with making a human being. That part was totally miraculous and genuine creation. It's not like Him making clothes from a goat skin...something that already existed and wasn't altered in a supernatural way.

The bible says God both created AND made. They are two hebrew words....did you read that article I posted?

I read the article again, and I just find it too complex for me to sort out. I am not brilliant enough to understand exactly what he's talking about, and some of it I just don't agree with. He wasn't about only going after the Hebrew word origins, but English as well.

Maybe the reason you don't agree is because you don't completely understand the point he was making. In any case, it's not that big a deal

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

The only passage I found that sounds like the above wasn't an angel, and the Lord is credited with putting the lying spirit in the mouth of the false prophet.

1 Kings 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

The same thing is mentioned in 2 Chronicles 18. If you find something else, please post it.

It wasn't an angel? It says a spirit...what was it? Look at the context further. Even if one says it was an evil spirit and not a good spirit (angel) they are all the same kind of beings that God created. Just because they fell does not make them different kinds of beings necessarily

1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear therefore the Word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left.
1Ki 22:20 And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramoth in Gilead? And one said this way, and another said that way.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit and stood before Jehovah and said, I will entice him.
1Ki 22:22 And Jehovah said to him, With what? And he said, I will go forth and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice him and succeed also. Go forth and do so.

This spirit has will. Angels are spirits

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

And again I'll ask was it someone or something?

Why do you keep asking me the same question over and over expecting me to answer it when I clearly said "someone other than God" the first time? You even quoted me like 2 or 3 times....

For instance, do you ever speak to your vehicle as if it were a person? How do we know it was SOMEONE?

No I do not speak to my vehicle as if it were a person. Nor would I ever say "we are going to church" or "we are going to make man after our image". The hebrew words involved and the grammar are someone speaking to someone else, in this case God is speaking to someone other than himself. And this someone other than Himself is in someway LIKE God and has the same IMAGE as God...dirt can't qualify

Not necessarily more than one PERSON....I talk to myself often and use 'us' and 'we' when talking just to me! LOL!

I paint once in a while, and I've often looked at the house and looked at my tools and said, "well, let's see what we can do to this place'. Yet, I'm the only person there. I also used 'us' when speaking to the paint supplies.

Have you ever just blurted out "Let us paint this house after our plan, according to our color scheme"?

I am a nurse, and when someone complains of chest pain, I say to them, "let's take a listen' and my stethescope and I work together as a team.

So despite the patient being there you are in fact conversing with your stethoscope?

Or maybe I'm just crazy and nobody else has done that........

Hmmm Hmmm Hmmm....dumdeedum

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It wasn't an angel? It says a spirit...what was it? Look at the context further. Even if one says it was an evil spirit and not a good spirit (angel) they are all the same kind of beings that God created. Just because they fell does not make them different kinds of beings necessarily

1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear therefore the Word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left.
1Ki 22:20 And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramoth in Gilead? And one said this way, and another said that way.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit and stood before Jehovah and said, I will entice him.
1Ki 22:22 And Jehovah said to him, With what? And he said, I will go forth and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice him and succeed also. Go forth and do so.

This spirit has will. Angels are spirits

Demons are altogether different. They might be fallen angels, but I view them in a totally different light.

And the Lord put him there. He didn't go on his own. If God said no, that demon couldn't have went, regardless the will he possessed, but that's not really the point, as it also applies to all.

However, it does seem that God had a purpose in all that, evil as it were. That is something I cannot understand in my feeble human mind.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Why do you keep asking me the same question over and over expecting me to answer it when I clearly said "someone other than God" the first time? You even quoted me like 2 or 3 times....

Answer the question and I'll quit asking! LOL!

No I do not speak to my vehicle as if it were a person. Nor would I ever say "we are going to church" or "we are going to make man after our image". The hebrew words involved and the grammar are someone speaking to someone else, in this case God is speaking to someone other than himself. And this someone other than Himself is in someway LIKE God and has the same IMAGE as God...dirt can't qualify

You haven't provided proof of that, however. That's what I'm looking for. Proof that the 'someone' God spoke to was in someway like God with the same image as God. The problem you have is that on several occasions, God speaks to something inanimate and that object does what it's commanded to do.

And you must be the only guy who's never gotten mad at his car, hit it and yelled at it when it didn't work right...haha!





[/\quote]Have you ever just blurted out "Let us paint this house after our plan, according to our color scheme"?[/quote]

Does is matter what exact words I used? The fact is, I said, "Let us..." That's the entire point.

So despite the patient being there you are in fact conversing with your stethoscope?

Not exactly....LOL! But the fact is, I said, "Let's take a listen." US is still used, even though I'm a singular person.

Hmmm Hmmm Hmmm....dumdeedum

That's what I thought.....I'm totally nuts!

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

You haven't provided proof of that, however. That's what I'm looking for. Proof that the 'someone' God spoke to was in someway like God with the same image as God. The problem you have is that on several occasions, God speaks to something inanimate and that object does what it's commanded to do.

The proof - all the proof you need - is in the words "us" and "our." "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." God was clearly speaking to sentient beings that were, in some way, like Himself - not other Gods but having characteristics or something that God also has - perhaps that something is the fact that God is Spirit and the angels are ministering spirits. But since dirt does not have any of God's characteristics, God could not have spoken to the dirt. Whatever the image or likeness is in which God made man, that image or likeness must be one that is shared by both God and those to whom God spoke.