Question about Acts 2:38: What about the martyrs?

[good samaritan]

Hades, Gehenna, Sheol, hell what ever you want to call it is a place. Heaven is also a place. I believe we don't totally understand the kingdom of heaven in our current state. The kingdom of heaven exists here and now, and at our second birth we become a part of that kingdom, but we shall one day inherit eternal life in the place that Jesus has went to prepare us. Samuel being summoned from the grave was before the the redemption paid at Calvary. Also was it really Samuel? IDK. conjecture.

I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself;

[shazeep]

well, i didn't mean to imply that they aren't real, just that they aren't physical. I don't really grasp the now, and later aspect, myself, and Solomon tells me that this is most likely not even possible. But Samuel @ the witch of Endor conjecture? Hmm.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, i didn't mean to imply that they aren't real, just that they aren't physical. I don't really grasp the now, and later aspect, myself, and Solomon tells me that this is most likely not even possible. But Samuel @ the witch of Endor conjecture? Hmm.

Is English your first language?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Horrible theology. You really think Jesus spent three and a half years of ministry teaching faith only to change His mind a few days after resurrecting?

As Esaias noted, this is a strawman argument. I never said Jesus changed his mind.

It is saying that JESUS initiated a NEW MESSAGE. What do the words BEGINNING and TARRY UNTIL mean to you?

Luk 24:47-49 KJV And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (48) And ye are witnesses of these things. (49) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

They were the BEGIN preaching this message in Jerusalem, as they were not there when Jesus gave these words. And they would TARRY UNTIL they got the Spirit in them, which was not yet their experience. All of that happened in Acts 2 AFTER Jesus ascended. About ten days after.

IOW, they had not preached it before and could not preach it til these requirements were met. They were in Jerusalem in Acts 1. They got the Spirit in Acts 2. They preached repentance, remission of sins in the Name, and promise of the Spirit in 2:38-39.

You'd have to be blind to miss it.

Faith in Messiah has ever been the only thing that justifies.

Of course. But FAITH IN HIS DEATH AS OUR DEATHS was not possible til AFTER HE DIED and RESURRECTED. His death was meaningless until HE RESURRECTED.

From Romans 3

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God freely and graciously declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.

Look closely...

25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

You are correct, but you are not properly presenting what BELIEF is all about. Jesus said that the BELIEVING required was not just any old belief. It was specific. IT WAS HOW THE APOSTLES would explain BELIEF.

Joh 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

How ,any aways are there to believe? Some say that walking into a laundromat and asking everyone inside if they believe Jesus died for their sins, seeing them all say YES, means all those people just got saved! Is THAT what Jesus meant? Jesus aid whosoever BELIEVES in Him shall not perish. Does that mean if we believe he historically existed and died on a cross that we are saved? TO WHAT EXTENT did Jesus imply when he said we must BELIEVE?

Hint: Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Well He said the APOSTLES would explain what degree of belief He meant. THEIR WORD about the issue would be HOW TO BELIEVE.

And even when people erringly go to Romans 10 with their easy-believest false doctrine that simply calling on the name of the Lord vocally and believing in the heart that folks are saved, if you KEEP READING you find the BELIEF the APOSTLES INSTRUCTED was the issue.

Rom 10:13-15 KJV For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

You must believe, but you cannot believe the way God requires unless you HEAR. And you cannot HEAR without a PREACHER. And a person is not a preacher UNLESS THEY ARE "SENT". "Apostle" means SENT ONE. So it all goes back to how the apostles told people to believe.

The Ephesians BELIEVED but were not saved!

Act 19:2 KJV He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul had to get them baptized and filled with the Spirit. You guys would let them go saying, "Well, they believed!" BELIEF was not enough, though. HOW did they belief. In WHAT MANNER did they believe? Paul went further than just believing. And it involved, whether you like it or not, Baptism in Jesus' name and Infilling of the Spirit.

Act 8:14-16 KJV Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

They received the WORD. That means they believed it! And notice IT ALSO INVOLVED BAPTISM! But one thing was lacking. Spirit baptism DOES NOT COME automatically with baptism, either. They had to come to see them filled with the Spirit.

Whenever the bible mentioned BELIEF with the apostles involved, BAPTISM was involved.

Old Testament saints were justified by grace through faith in a Messiah whose name was not yet revealed.

But if you do not handle that understanding properly you still have that false easy-believest doctrine that is contradicted throughout the Book of Acts and the epistles.

That was all before Jesus even DIED! Before He ever resurrected. If that is all that is required, then Jesus did not have to die and resurrect. but His resurrection covered the old testament saints and applied their faith and obedience in sacrifice for sins through animals to HIS SACRIFICE.

Heb 9:15 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The people who lived and died in the FIRST OLD covenant had THEIR transgressions dealt with by the DEATH OF JESUS. So, His death covered them too, BUT ONLY WHEN HE DID DIE. Until then their sins were ROLLED AHEAD so to speak for Jesus to take those sins and DIE. Animal blood could not remit sins. ONLY JESUS COULD. And John was in the same bracket as all the old testament saints who lived and died until Jesus resurrected to make ATONEMENT.

New Testament saints have the benefit of His revealed name. However, Paul clearly states that everyone, in all eras, must be justified by faith.

Next!

Of course, without faith baptism is nothing. But faith without baptism is nothing, as well, now that we are ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ATONEMENT BY JESUS SINCE HIS RESURRECTION.

Without us and OUR NEW COVENANT of death, burial and resurrection for salvation, THE OLD SAINTS WOULD BE LOST!

Heb 11:39-40 KJV And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Slam dunk!

NEXT!

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

As Esaias noted, this is a strawman argument. I never said Jesus changed his min
It is saying that JESUS initiated a NEW MESSAGE. What do the words BEGINNING and TARRY UNTIL mean to you?
Luk 24:47-49 KJV And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (48) And ye are witnesses of these things. (49) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
They were the BEGIN preaching this message in Jerusalem, as they were not there when Jesus gave these words. And they would TARRY UNTIL they got the Spirit in them, which was not yet their experience. All of that happened in Acts 2 AFTER Jesus ascended. About ten days after.
IOW, they had not preached it before and could not preach it til these requirements were met. They were in Jerusalem in Acts 1. They got the Spirit in Acts 2. They preached repentance, remission of sins in the Name, and promise of the Spirit in 2:38-39.
You'd have to be blind to miss it.
Of course. But FAITH IN HIS DEATH AS OUR DEATHS was not possible til AFTER HE DIED and RESURRECTED. His death was meaningless until HE RESURRECTED.
You are correct, but you are not properly presenting what BELIEF is all about. Jesus said that the BELIEVING required was not just any old belief. It was specific. IT WAS HOW THE APOSTLES would explain BELIEF.

Joh 17:20 KJV Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

How ,any aways are there to believe? Some say that walking into a laundromat and asking everyone inside if they believe Jesus died for their sins, seeing them all say YES, means all those people just got saved! Is THAT what Jesus meant? Jesus aid whosoever BELIEVES in Him shall not perish. Does that mean if we believe he historically existed and died on a cross that we are saved? TO WHAT EXTENT did Jesus imply when he said we must BELIEVE?
Hint: Mar 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Well He said the APOSTLES would explain what degree of belief He meant. THEIR WORD about the issue would be HOW TO BELIEVE.
And even when people erringly go to Romans 10 with their easy-believest false doctrine that simply calling on the name of the Lord vocally and believing in the heart that folks are saved, if you KEEP READING you find the BELIEF the APOSTLES INSTRUCTED was the issue.

Rom 10:13-15 KJV For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

You must believe, but you cannot believe the way God requires unless you HEAR. And you cannot HEAR without a PREACHER. And a person is not a preacher UNLESS THEY ARE "SENT". "Apostle" means SENT ONE. So it all goes back to how the apostles told people to believe.
The Ephesians BELIEVED but were not saved!

Act 19:2 KJV He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul had to get them baptized and filled with the Spirit. You guys would let them go saying, "Well, they believed!" BELIEF was not enough, though. HOW did they belief. In WHAT MANNER did they believe? Paul went further than just believing. And it involved, whether you like it or not, Baptism in Jesus' name and Infilling of the Spirit.

Act 8:14-16 KJV Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (16) (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

They received the WORD. That means they believed it! And notice IT ALSO INVOLVED BAPTISM! But one thing was lacking. Spirit baptism DOES NOT COME automatically with baptism, either. They had to come to see them filled with the Spirit.
Whenever the bible mentioned BELIEF with the apostles involved, BAPTISM was involved.
But if you do not handle that understanding properly you still have that false easy-believest doctrine that is contradicted throughout the Book of Acts and the epistles.
That was all before Jesus even DIED! Before He ever resurrected. If that is all that is required, then Jesus did not have to die and resurrect. but His resurrection covered the old testament saints and applied their faith and obedience in sacrifice for sins through animals to HIS SACRIFICE.

Heb 9:15 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The people who lived and died in the FIRST OLD covenant had THEIR transgressions dealt with by the DEATH OF JESUS. So, His death covered them too, BUT ONLY WHEN HE DID DIE. Until then their sins were ROLLED AHEAD so to speak for Jesus to take those sins and DIE. Animal blood could not remit sins. ONLY JESUS COULD. And John was in the same bracket as all the old testament saints who lived and died until Jesus resurrected to make ATONEMENT.
Of course, without faith baptism is nothing. But faith without baptism is nothing, as well, now that we are ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ATONEMENT BY JESUS SINCE HIS RESURRECTION.
Without us and OUR NEW COVENANT of death, burial and resurrection for salvation, THE OLD SAINTS WOULD BE LOST!
Heb 11:39-40 KJV And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Slam dunk!
NEXT!

AMEN! The only way not to understand your words would be to close my eyes and cover my ears!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

AMEN! The only way not to understand your words would be to close my eyes and cover my ears!

Which is a specialty of my brother Chardrock.

[Aquila]

Have they repented?
Have they been baptized, calling upon the name of the Lord?
Have they been filled with the Spirit?

Let us be cautious though... these things might not take the form we expect them to take.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Have they repented?
Have they been baptized, calling upon the name of the Lord?
Have they been filled with the Spirit?

Let us be cautious though... these things might not take the form we expect them to take.

Whether they take the form we expect or not, the facts remain they must exist.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

AMEN! The only way not to understand your words would be to close my eyes and cover my ears!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Whether they take the form we expect or not, the facts remain they must exist.

I don't care if 10,000 priests are chanting the name of the Trinity over a convert... if the convert is baptized, calling upon the name of the Lord in prayer, their sins are washed away.

If a convert finds themselves trembling and quaking in their devotions while the Spirit moves upon them and they simply don't understand that they can also "speak" under this power, I do not deny them the baptism of the Spirit.