My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The bible never said a Jew has to be so by blood descent. A gentile who is circumcised as a male and keeps the law was considered as one BORN IN THE LAND. Jewishness is nothing about race. Hitler promoted that error. A Jew is a person religiously adhering to Mosaic Law OR born of a jewish woman. It's either, though. Not just birth. After all, A jew told me that in his book THE SECOND JEWISH BOOK OF WHY.

Well that is true, now that I think about it. Rahab wasn't a "Jew" was she? And she was part of the lineage of Christ. Ruth was not a "Jew" but became part of the lineage of Christ as well.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Well that is true, now that I think about it. Rahab wasn't a "Jew" was she? And she was part of the lineage of Christ. Ruth was not a "Jew" but became part of the lineage of Christ as well.

Sorry, KBTW, but Rahab the harlot (Hebrews 11:31) was NOT of the lineage of Christ! James 2:25 states ONLY that she was justified by works, but even he made NO mention that she was born of the (blood) lineage of Christ as is plainly described in Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38.

The "blood" lineage of Christ Jesus, as it is with every male child, was explicitly described as by the father, and in neither record of Matthew or Luke does the name of a female (such as Ruth) appear. The "blood" lineage of every child, be they male or female, is always determined by the father! Not even the "blood" lineage of the Christ-child was determined by His mother Mary, rather by His Father, the Spirit of God!

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Sorry, KBTW, but Rahab the harlot (Hebrews 11:31) was NOT of the lineage of Christ! James 2:25 states ONLY that she was justified by works, but even he made NO mention that she was born of the (blood) lineage of Christ as is plainly described in Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38.

The "blood" lineage of Christ Jesus, as it is with every male child, was explicitly described as by the father, and in neither record of Matthew or Luke does the name of a female (such as Ruth) appear. The "blood" lineage of every child, be they male or female, is always determined by the father! Not even the "blood" lineage of the Christ-child was determined by His mother Mary, rather by His Father, the Spirit of God!

Matt 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;

Matt 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

Matt 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Matt 1:16 16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Matthew lists the lineage of Jesus with five women being included in the naming of the lineage: Thamar, Rachab, Ruth, Bathsheba and Mary the mother of Jesus.

[KeptByTheWord]

Lafon... do you really believe that there is such a thing as a Jew today who is a perfect descendent of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, of pure lineage with no "gentile" blood mixed in? If so... what you believe is in direct contraction to the lineage I just presented you with above from Matthew, thus your premise seems unfounded.

There are no "true" Jews with perfect lineage, as even Christ had those in his lineage who were of gentile blood, and not "direct" descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Matt 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;

Matt 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

Matt 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Matt 1:16 16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Matthew lists the lineage of Jesus with five women being included in the naming of the lineage: Thamar, Rachab, Ruth, Bathsheba and Mary the mother of Jesus.

The point being ....... NONE are born of the "seed" of a woman, except Mary, whose "seed" was NOT her own, but the Holy Ghost who created & implanted it in her womb! Blood lineage is ALL in the ones who "begat," that is the male. The fact that the names of women such as Thamar, Rachab, Ruth, and "her that had been the wife of Uraih, that is Solomon's mother /Bathsheba, are even noted are of ABSOLUTELY NO consequence whatsoever!

Visit the Boston Children's Hospital and examine the manner in which a human body if formed in the womb, and you'll discover that the ONLY thing which does NOT pass from mother to the fetus is the "blood." The skeletal bones of the forming body generates its own blood supply, none of which ever intermingles with the blood of its mother! NEVER! This is what made the "blood" of Christ Jesus pure, untainted by the sin-marred blood of His mother Mary, therefore making it acceptable as an atonement for our sins!

[aegsm76]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
How far does that extend?
Could a person who is half Jew be saved?
What about 1/4 or 1/32?
Where is the cut-off?
Lafon - How about answering the above?
After all, I don't want to waste my time witnessing to someone who cannot be saved.
Any other races that I need to skip?


FOR THE THIRD TIME...
MUST BE AVOIDING IT BECAUSE YOU CANNOT OR DO NOT WANT TO ANSWER.
OR BECAUSE THE ANSWER LEADS YOU DOWN A PATH THAT YOU KNOW YOU CANNOT GO.

Hmmm.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Lafon

The point being ....... NONE are born of the "seed" of a woman, except Mary, whose "seed" was NOT her own, but the Holy Ghost who created & implanted it in her womb! Blood lineage is ALL in the ones who "begat," that is the male. The fact that the names of women such as Thamar, Rachab, Ruth, and "her that had been the wife of Uraih, that is Solomon's mother /Bathsheba, are even noted are of ABSOLUTELY NO consequence whatsoever!

What makes you think the names of those women are of no consequence whatsoever? Nothing written in the word is of "no consequence". There is a reason they were mentioned, maybe just not one that you want to accept. Where exactly in scripture is it explicitly stated that to be a true descendant of Abraham that the lineage must be determined through the male only? The mothers are often mentioned in the lineages given in Numbers and other places throughout the OT.

Originally Posted by Lafon

Visit the Boston Children's Hospital and examine the manner in which a human body if formed in the womb, and you'll discover that the ONLY thing which does NOT pass from mother to the fetus is the "blood." The skeletal bones of the forming body generates its own blood supply, none of which ever intermingles with the blood of its mother! NEVER! This is what made the "blood" of Christ Jesus pure, untainted by the sin-marred blood of His mother Mary, therefore making it acceptable as an atonement for our sins!

Regardless if the mother's blood is not given to the child it is still her child, and her DNA is still wrapped up within that child, and the lineage still holds her DNA within it. Jesus still had the DNA of gentile women passed down to him, much as you are trying to wiggle out of that concept.

And so back to the topic at hand - is there such a thing as a "pure" lineage Jew today? It seems highly unlikely there is.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
How far does that extend?
Could a person who is half Jew be saved?
What about 1/4 or 1/32?
Where is the cut-off?
Lafon - How about answering the above?
After all, I don't want to waste my time witnessing to someone who cannot be saved.
Any other races that I need to skip?


FOR THE THIRD TIME...
MUST BE AVOIDING IT BECAUSE YOU CANNOT OR DO NOT WANT TO ANSWER.
OR BECAUSE THE ANSWER LEADS YOU DOWN A PATH THAT YOU KNOW YOU CANNOT GO.

Hmmm.

Good question.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
How far does that extend?
Could a person who is half Jew be saved?
What about 1/4 or 1/32?
Where is the cut-off?
Lafon - How about answering the above?
After all, I don't want to waste my time witnessing to someone who cannot be saved.
Any other races that I need to skip?


FOR THE THIRD TIME...
MUST BE AVOIDING IT BECAUSE YOU CANNOT OR DO NOT WANT TO ANSWER.
OR BECAUSE THE ANSWER LEADS YOU DOWN A PATH THAT YOU KNOW YOU CANNOT GO.

Hmmm.

I haven't been avoiding your questions! Just been busily absorbed in the discussion with KBTW.

Regarding your questions -Could a person who is half Jew be saved, or of mixed blood, whatever degree, be saved? I think I gave my opinion about that already. A Samaritan is half Jew, and although I have no indisputable, irrefutable scriptural evidence to the contrary, I believe a person of Samaritan lineage can be saved. Therefore if one who is only half-Jewish descent can be saved, then it would only stand to reason that those of lesser Jewish descent could also be saved.

The ONLY race or nationality of mankind which the Bible explicitly states that they CANNOT be saved, that is currently and UNTIL the "times of the Gentiles" are completed, are the "natural" descendants of the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! All other races and nationalities are considered to be of Gentile heritage and are eligible to be saved!

Once again, and read this carefully: When God warned ancient Israel of the judgment of gross spiritual blindness that He would send into their minds, effectively rendering them unable to discern good from evil, that is if they forsook Him and His commandments, that curse explicitly stated that "thou shalt be ONLY oppressed and spoiled evermore, AND NO MAN SHALL SAVE THEE" (see Deuteronomy 28:28-29).

It just doesn't get any plainer than that. NO MAN CAN HELP ISRAEL, that is, a "true" descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be saved! As for me, UNTIL the "times of the Gentiles" is finished, I would NOT waste as single moment of my precious time trying to persuade a "true" Jew to accept any part of the saving gospel of Christ. What the Lord hath shut no man can open, and seeing that He has caused the minds of ALL "true" Jews to be closed, it was be the samer as mer trying to open that which the Lord has shut --- an impossible task!

Pardon me, but I am extremely tired and MUST get some rest. Good Night!

[aegsm76]

Lafon - I am truly curious, since I have never heard this theology before.
When did the moment happen when "true" Jews could not be saved?
Was it when Peter went and preached to Cornelius, thereby opening the door to the Gentiles?
Also, what will happen to all of the "true" Jews who died, never having any hope of salvation? Will they be judged under the old covenant?