Time For Churches To Pay Taxes?

[good samaritan]

Learn something. Here is my answer on Mosques. No problem. We dont make any money. Not a cent. We pay expenses as we go. So taxes, no taxes, our outcome is the same.

So in other words you maintain a zero balance in your treasury. Every month after bills are paid and expenses are met it is a zero balance? I need a little more explaining to understand how you pull that off.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Because what you are calling profits will be used on nothing, but church operations. Every dollar that a church collects in the treasury is going to be used for something associated with its operating. Charity, building upkeep, emergencies, etc. The money in most church treasuries is not much if any and it will be used eventually on something you are naming to be tax deductible. The money is not invested or used to make profits. I can speak only for our personal church and others close to us. I am sure there are many out there who manipulate the system but in most cases that is the exception and not the rule.

And yes you are right I should not share what are church contributes. Though it wasn't for vain glory, or to receive a reward of men. It was to prove a point that churches aren't for profit.

I think a lot of churches would be unaffected. Maybe as you and Prax say most of them. I think many would not. I would never suggest that churches should be penalized for their existance but religion has become big business in many cases and in those cases they should be taxed or return to their claimed purpose

[Esaias]

Churches have always been tax "exempt" but not because of an exemption! The first amendment prohibits the government from even defining "church" in any strictly legal sense.

The IRS in its publication for "non profit" organizations recognizes churches are non-taxable.

The problem is most "churches" incorporate as corporations, not for profit, and seek IRS exemption through 501 (c) 3 which grants THE CORPORATION tax exempt recognition.

Arguments in favour of taxing churches are based ENTIRELY on a fundamental ignorance not only of Title 26 and its corresponding CFR but on an ignorance of the first amendment, the meaning of "church" in law, and the concepts (and consequences) of "incorporation".

True it is that MOST "churches" are incorporated for monetary purposes, and greed and love of filthy lucre run rampant, which is why eventually God will judge them and take away their baubles and trinkets, gold and silver.

The state's "official religious outlets" however will roll on business as usual.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Churches have always been tax "exempt" but not because of an exemption! The first amendment prohibits the government from even defining "church" in any strictly legal sense.

The IRS in its publication for "non profit" organizations recognizes churches are non-taxable.

The problem is most "churches" incorporate as corporations, not for profit, and seek IRS exemption through 501 (c) 3 which grants THE CORPORATION tax exempt recognition.

Arguments in favour of taxing churches are based ENTIRELY on a fundamental ignorance not only of Title 26 and its corresponding CFR but on an ignorance of the first amendment, the meaning of "church" in law, and the concepts (and consequences) of "incorporation".

True it is that MOST "churches" are incorporated for monetary purposes, and greed and love of filthy lucre run rampant, which is why eventually God will judge them and take away their baubles and trinkets, gold and silver.

The state's "official religious outlets" however will roll on business as usual.

The bill of rights is to protect individuals and the meaning of the church in law is that laws based on religious preferences or beliefs are prohibited. It is to protect us all from what was historically heavy handed rule by the church and to prevent one set of religious beliefs from interfering with any other set.

Fit for a country founded by people escaping christian religious persecution

This has nothing to do with taxes unless of course some are taxed and some are not.

[Esaias]

It has a lot to do with taxes as we are discussing taxes and churches. And according to 508 (c)(1)(a) churches have "mandatory exemption" from a requirement to request 501 (c) 3 status/exemption.

To put it simply, a church is non-taxable and automatically exempt. A corporation (not for profit) is NOT, however, and must apply for tax exempt status. By incorporating, church lose that non taxable status and become taxable (but now with an exemption). What is granted by government can be regulated or even rescinded by government.

Freedom of religion and association however, is not granted by government and therefore cannot be (lawfully) rescinded or revoked.

Therefore, the whole discussion in this thread is flawed as it does not distinguish between churches (or other religious associations) and corporations.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Bills and utilities are business expenses. What about taxing profits is so hard to grasp here. As i said, if churches are Breaking even no profits then whats the problem?

Again...churches are not for profit orgs. If I rented a room with several other room mates and contribute money to pay for utilities you don't tax those.

And as I said most churches barely have any fund left after paying expenses. Churches are not in it to make a profit.

Also what about a church that us saving funds for a new building or addition?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Learn something. Here is my answer on Mosques. No problem. We dont make any money. Not a cent. We pay expenses as we go. So taxes, no taxes, our outcome is the same.

WHO Pays expenses? The members? Yeah same here. What about the cost for a new building? Should that be taxed?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

See i was right. It is for the local body of believers, not for the community. Told you that already.

Its for both. Churches do a lot of community services

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Its for both. Churches do a lot of community services

What does your church do?

Since say the beginning of the year give some examples. Not personal service, but church sponsored public community service. Perhaps my impression is wrong. If it is I will admit my error.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

WHO Pays expenses? The members? Yeah same here. What about the cost for a new building? Should that be taxed?

By the members of course. There is Zakat which is tracked separately and is not allowed to be used for anything but charity. Charity includes food, or clothing, or utilities, or rent assistance, or to pay medical bills, for the needy. It is managed by an elected officer. The Zakat fund is carefully accounted. Other funds, that you just drop in a box after Friday prayer, are used for expenses for the Mosque itself. Sometimes they are short and if so they let us know. Sometimes they are not. As you said, and based on the accounting, they pretty much make running expenses by weekly collection.

The funds for building and expansion are separated. If you want to contribute to that you have to note it somehow. Those are also accounted. The accounting for everything is open to all members. That is different compared to most churches i guess. When they want to build a parking lot or something like that sometimes they plan it, raise the money, and start it. I never saw them "save" but i saw 50 thousand dollars raised and collected one time after friday prayer to start the school gym. They started building right away. After that and until it was finished they raised money as they needed. One time they collected a bunch of money to build a Mosque somewhere else. It was raised, collected, and turned over. I suspect most churches are the same and i suspect at any book closing time, as i observed, there is good accounting and not much to tax.