POLL: Does the "MAN" Jesus Christ still exist?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sean

Your presupposition is underlined above...When you say something is not real, but symbolic. You are saying it does not really exist. That makes it fake.

Stop for a minute. The WORD is distinctly said to be a SWORD of the Spirit, Sean. Heb 4:12 is distinctly saying the SWORD is a symbol of the WORD OF GOD. You are accusing Heb 4:12 of saying the SWORD IS FAKE.

It has nothing to do with anything being fake. The SWORD of the WORD is more powerful than any physical sword.

2Co 10:4 KJV (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

And there is no supposition involved when a verse in the Bible distinctly says the WORD is represented by a SWORD.

Heb 4:12 KJV For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Eph 6:17 KJV And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Isa 49:2 KJV And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

If I did not have THESE VERSES that directly compare the word to a sword, THEN AND THEN ONLY would it be supposition. And that is what I do with everything in Revelation.

All of the symbolism preterism proposes is mostly symbolic explanations of literal prophecies.

Now THAT is supposition. How many times must I tell you that SIGNIFIED in Rev 1:1 means related by SIGNS. Do you know what a SIGN is, Sean?

Signify
SIG'NIFY, v. t. [L. significo; signum, a sign, and facio, to make.]

1. To make known something, either by signs or words; to express or communicate to another any idea, thought, wish, a hod, wink, gesture, signal or other sign. A man signifies his mind by his voice or by written characters; he may signify his mind by a nod or other motion, provided the person to whom he directs it, understands what is intend by it. A general or an admiral signifies his commands by signals to officers as a distance.

It is saying these things you read are not real things, they mean something else, just like your statement underlined.

I already showed you that Rev 1 is PROVED to be symbolic and you apologized (thank-you) for saying there was no symbolism there. You found out there was. And you are the FIRST ONE I EVER MET who believed that was not symbolic. I know dispensationalist futurists who know that is symbolic.

You are saying that the Lord has a Fake sword proceeding from His mouth defined in Rev 1 and Rev 19, if you think it is only symbolic, and not real.

It is a symbol relating the message THAT THE WORD OF JESUS WILL SMITE. When HE SPEAKS He destroys! It's not a real sword, but a REAL WORD that the sword symbolizes. And HIS WORD is FAR FAR more powerful than a physical sword.

You are wreaking havoc with plain symbols.

In the same sentence as we read about the SEVEN STARS IN HIS HAD, we read a sword comes form His mouth.

Rev 1:16 KJV And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

And the last verse of the chapter says the stars are symbols. And you say the sword is not?

You have simply gotten so ridiculous about this, that it is unbelievable.

A myriad of scholars agree:

CLARKE: The sharp two-edged sword may represent the word of God in general, according to that saying of the apostle, Heb_4:12 : The word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, etc. And the word of God is termed the sword of the Spirit, Eph_6:17.

BARNES: And out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword - On the form of the ancient two-edged sword, see the notes on Eph_6:17. The two edges were designed to cut both ways; and such a sword is a striking emblem of the penetrating power of truth, or of words that proceed from the mouth; and this is designed undoubtedly to be the representation here - that there was some symbol which showed that his words, or his truth, had the power of cutting deep, or penetrating the soul. So in Isa_49:2, it is said of the same personage, “And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword.” See the notes on that verse. So in Heb_4:12, “The Word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword,” etc. So it is said of Pericles by Aristophanes:

GILL: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword; which designs the word of God; see Eph_6:17; This comes out of the mouth of Christ, it is the word of God, and not of man; and is a sharp sword, contains sharp reproofs for sin, severe threatenings against it, and gives cutting convictions of it, and is a twoedged one; and by its two edges may be meant law and Gospel; the law lays open the sins of men, fills with grief and anguish for them, yea, not only wounds, but kills; and the Gospel cuts down the best in man,

JAMIESON FAUSSET AND BROWN: out of ... mouth went — Greek, “going forth”; not wielded in the hand. His WORD is omnipotent in executing His will in punishing sinners. It is the sword of His Spirit. Reproof and punishment, rather than its converting winning power, is the prominent point. Still, as He encourages the churches, as well as threatens, the former quality of the Word is not excluded. Its two edges (back and front) may allude to its double efficacy, condemning some, converting others. Tertullian [Epistle against Judaizers], takes them of the Old and the New Testaments. Richard of St. Victor, “the Old Testament cutting externally our carnal, the New Testament internally, our spiritual sins.”

BW JOHNSON: And out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword. This two-edged sword is a symbol of the word by which Christ's conquests are won. See Eph_6:17; Heb_4:12, and compare Rev_19:15.

I did not even know what these guys thought about it, but it was so obvious I knew they likely agreed with me.

Please show me ONE SINGLE SCHOLAR'S WORDS who agrees that it is an actual sword to come out of Christ's mouth. JUST ONE!

I cannot believe you are that literal about this! LOL Wow.

[mfblume]

Even futurists like you agree with me that it is not a literal sword:

http://www.jesusisthecomingking.com/...his-mouth.html

So it's not just preterists, Sean. lol Unless that makes all that futurism supposition. lol

[mfblume]

Jesus is indeed a human MAN still, and that manifestation never ended at the resurrection. God cannot resurrect. And God is not the result of a MAN resurrecting. Jesus resurrected as a man and is a resurrected MAN to this day. He is immortal and cannot die, which is what we will be when we physically resurrect also.

[mfblume]

Psalm 110:1 is the most oft-quoted OT verse in the New Testament. And 1 Cor 15 refers to it saying that Jesus will sit on the throne and rule until His enemies are made his footstool. God the Father spoke to the Son in Psalm 11:0 telling Him to sit until the FATHER makes the Son's enemies the Son's footstool. That has not happened yet. That means He is still seated.

That MAN is still seated.

If He is no longer a MAN - a human being -- glorified and immortal, then we have TWO GODS. One God telling the other God to sit until One God makes the other God's enemies His footstool.

Psa 110:1 KJV A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1Co 15:25-27 KJV For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Stop for a minute. The WORD is distinctly said to be a SWORD of the Spirit, Sean. Heb 4:12 is distinctly saying the SWORD is a symbol of the WORD OF GOD. You are accusing Heb 4:12 of saying the SWORD IS FAKE.

It has nothing to do with anything being fake. The SWORD of the WORD is more powerful than any physical sword.

2Co 10:4 KJV (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

And there is no supposition involved when a verse in the Bible distinctly says the WORD is represented by a SWORD.

Heb 4:12 KJV For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Eph 6:17 KJV And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Isa 49:2 KJV And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

If I did not have THESE VERSES that directly compare the word to a sword, THEN AND THEN ONLY would it be supposition. And that is what I do with everything in Revelation.



Now THAT is supposition. How many times must I tell you that SIGNIFIED in Rev 1:1 means related by SIGNS. Do you know what a SIGN is, Sean?

Signify
SIG'NIFY, v. t. [L. significo; signum, a sign, and facio, to make.]

1. To make known something, either by signs or words; to express or communicate to another any idea, thought, wish, a hod, wink, gesture, signal or other sign. A man signifies his mind by his voice or by written characters; he may signify his mind by a nod or other motion, provided the person to whom he directs it, understands what is intend by it. A general or an admiral signifies his commands by signals to officers as a distance.



I already showed you that Rev 1 is PROVED to be symbolic and you apologized (thank-you) for saying there was no symbolism there. You found out there was. And you are the FIRST ONE I EVER MET who believed that was not symbolic. I know dispensationalist futurists who know that is symbolic.



It is a symbol relating the message THAT THE WORD OF JESUS WILL SMITE. When HE SPEAKS He destroys! It's not a real sword, but a REAL WORD that the sword symbolizes. And HIS WORD is FAR FAR more powerful than a physical sword.

You are wreaking havoc with plain symbols.

In the same sentence as we read about the SEVEN STARS IN HIS HAD, we read a sword comes form His mouth.

Rev 1:16 KJV And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

And the last verse of the chapter says the stars are symbols. And you say the sword is not?

You have simply gotten so ridiculous about this, that it is unbelievable.

A myriad of scholars agree:

CLARKE: The sharp two-edged sword may represent the word of God in general, according to that saying of the apostle, Heb_4:12 : The word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, etc. And the word of God is termed the sword of the Spirit, Eph_6:17.

BARNES: And out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword - On the form of the ancient two-edged sword, see the notes on Eph_6:17. The two edges were designed to cut both ways; and such a sword is a striking emblem of the penetrating power of truth, or of words that proceed from the mouth; and this is designed undoubtedly to be the representation here - that there was some symbol which showed that his words, or his truth, had the power of cutting deep, or penetrating the soul. So in Isa_49:2, it is said of the same personage, “And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword.” See the notes on that verse. So in Heb_4:12, “The Word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword,” etc. So it is said of Pericles by Aristophanes:

GILL: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword; which designs the word of God; see Eph_6:17; This comes out of the mouth of Christ, it is the word of God, and not of man; and is a sharp sword, contains sharp reproofs for sin, severe threatenings against it, and gives cutting convictions of it, and is a twoedged one; and by its two edges may be meant law and Gospel; the law lays open the sins of men, fills with grief and anguish for them, yea, not only wounds, but kills; and the Gospel cuts down the best in man,

JAMIESON FAUSSET AND BROWN: out of ... mouth went — Greek, “going forth”; not wielded in the hand. His WORD is omnipotent in executing His will in punishing sinners. It is the sword of His Spirit. Reproof and punishment, rather than its converting winning power, is the prominent point. Still, as He encourages the churches, as well as threatens, the former quality of the Word is not excluded. Its two edges (back and front) may allude to its double efficacy, condemning some, converting others. Tertullian [Epistle against Judaizers], takes them of the Old and the New Testaments. Richard of St. Victor, “the Old Testament cutting externally our carnal, the New Testament internally, our spiritual sins.”

BW JOHNSON: And out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword. This two-edged sword is a symbol of the word by which Christ's conquests are won. See Eph_6:17; Heb_4:12, and compare Rev_19:15.

I did not even know what these guys thought about it, but it was so obvious I knew they likely agreed with me.

Please show me ONE SINGLE SCHOLAR'S WORDS who agrees that it is an actual sword to come out of Christ's mouth. JUST ONE!

I cannot believe you are that literal about this! LOL Wow.

WOW MIKE, this is a HUGE presupposition you just made....you just turned this little passage...12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.....

......INTO THE ABOVE STATEMENT YOU MADE!!!



You just took a literal Jesus right out of the book of Revelation and replaced him with an imaginary figure of Him(a vision)...I mean a glorified, walking, talking, dead raising, powerful, fake symbolic saviour!


Mike, this is not really Jesus Himself?....Cmon, you dont think these underlined things in the passage describing Jesus' body parts in detail are fake do you?

Would you believe it is a literal Jesus if He showed you the holes in His hands and feet???


John knew it was Jesus, Mike...there was no doubt about it. He described His Saviour in detail for all of us to see what He appears like now. John also described his Savior in detail for us in Rev. 19 the same way.

These 2 passages were not described this way so we can just ignore their physical descriptions, explain them away and try to find the "deeper" meanings that many are endlessly seeking today.

[mfblume]

Jesus is on the throne and sits there until all enemies are under his feet.

Sean, you're ridiculously wrong.

See ya. We will not converse again.

[Sean]

This is a description of this same savior in the following chapter......

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Is this fake also, or is it sooo fearful that even heaven and earth are destroyed upon seeing HIS face.

No wonder John was scared in chapter 1 !!!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Jesus is on the throne and sits there until all enemies are under his feet.

Stephen saw Him standing Mike

Sean, you're ridiculously wrong.

See ya. We will not converse again.

Just quoting the LITERAL Bible to ya, trying to minimize my opinion and let it speak for itself.

See ya!