You Can Fake It All

[n david]

Originally Posted by Reader

So why not stop accusing the poster of 'whatever' and instead address the post. If you think what was shared has no merit, then say why, but not based upon what you think of the poster, but rather what was written by them. If you think some of it has merit, then say why, but not based upon what you think of the poster.

I did address the post and why I believe it's incorrect and absurd.

[Reader]

Of course people can fake it.

I think there is a mixture of this. Some may fake everything for whatever reasons. I recall a pastor sharing how a man faked tongues because he wanted to marry a woman in church. Some may only "fake" standards because they don't believe they are found in the Bible but believe they should follow what is taught. It may have nothing to do with wrongful motives. There may be people who do it all but are not knowingly faking anything as they are going through the motions, but not really having a proper knowledge of God. There are many aspects to this besides someone deliberately and with wrong intent "faking" it all.

Those are not so much the point, I do not believe, but rather that because these can be faked, how can they - or should they - be used as a tool to say anyone is in or out? In other words, should these be used as definitive proof that an individual is saved or lost? Could we be saying Sister Sally is saved when we don't realize she has faked some or all of it?

[n david]

What is constructive about this thread? Seriously, what's the point, other than to have yet another thread targeting the UPC for something?

How do you know people are faking?

What facts and evidence do you have to back up the claim that "a great many" do what you accuse them of doing.

Why would people go through the trouble when it's much easier to fake it in a denominal church where it's one prayer and you're golden?

What are your suggestions to ensure people aren't faking it in the UPC? Tongue check? Monitor the saints at their homes and work? Make people write an essay on the plan of salvation to make sure they really know and aren't just pretending.

Just a few questions.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

From now on, if anyone wants to discuss the subject of this thread, which is whether a person can fake following the Acts 2:38 formula and standards, that is what I would like to discuss. All this talk about "bashing" is nothing but a rabbit trail to deflect what needs to be discussed and I will discuss that no further.

And so....the whole formula can be faked, no matter if it's UPC, ALJC, PAW or whatever the name of the organization may be. It is very easy to fake repentance, baptism, tongues and the following of standards with no spirituality connected to it whatsoever even though it is used as a stick to measure people's connectedness to God.

PM incoming.....'cause you made me think of something.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by n david

I did address the post and why I believe it's incorrect and absurd.

So you will not address where the full quote showed you were incorrect in what you assume ILG stated?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Reader

So you will not address where the full quote showed you were incorrect in what you assume ILG stated?

Originally Posted by Reader

Full quote: "The same thing is true in all churches but many other churches don't constantly measure who is "in" and who is "out"."

Where did she say the UPC is the ONLY ONE saying who is in or out? Where? She states "many other churches don't" but nowhere says UPC is the ONLY one.

You're right, she didn't say the UPC is the only one; however, she says all churches, then says many, IMO, excluding all but the UPC.

She also doesn't clarify that it wasn't just the UPC, and with the target of the thread being the UPC, I was not incorrect in my post.

Originally Posted by Reader

Could you be reading things into her writing because of prior posts and a predisposition against this poster?

Nope. My bias is only on this thread because she singled out one organization with something that could happen across the broad spectrum of churches, denominations and organizations. If I read into this, it's only due to her targeting one organization.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by n david

What is constructive about this thread? Seriously, what's the point, other than to have yet another thread targeting the UPC for something?

I have shared several thoughts to consider and I have not attacked the UPC.

How do you know people are faking?

That is the point, I believe. If these things can be faked, should they be used as a tool to say someone is in or out? While you may catch some people deliberately faking, others are not doing so but instead are going through the motions. Others are following in all sincerity.

What facts and evidence do you have to back up the claim that "a great many" do what you accuse them of doing.

Why would people go through the trouble when it's much easier to fake it in a denominal church where it's one prayer and you're golden?

I have seen much over many years. And some do not deliberately fake everything, which addresses your last sentence. Also, the example I gave in a previous post shows why at least one man did. As to the former, I have heard many share that they did not believe this aspect or that aspect. Some are one thing at church but if you see them in a function outside of church, they are not the same. I know of a man who appeared to be in, but had an eye out for underage girls. There are many examples I could give from what I personally have witnessed. Even though you do not like this discussion, I am certain that you also know of those who have been less than honest when it comes to these things.

What are your suggestions to ensure people aren't faking it in the UPC? Tongue check? Monitor the saints at their homes and work? Make people write an essay on the plan of salvation to make sure they really know and aren't just pretending.

Just a few questions.

Certainly wouldn't be anything I would advocate. It would end up being another list to judge by.

Did you ponder at all what I wrote earlier? Quote: "If this is so, that in essence there are people "going through the motions" in the churches but not truly having that knowledge or personal relationship with Jesus, what can be done about it? What changes could be made in the churches to stop, or at least greatly hinder, such from happening?"

[Reader]

Originally Posted by n david

You're right, she didn't say the UPC is the only one; however, she says all churches, then says many, IMO, excluding all but the UPC.

She also doesn't clarify that it wasn't just the UPC, and with the target of the thread being the UPC, I was not incorrect in my post.

She did clarify when she wrote, "Regardless, ANY church, that has a way that people can be "in" simply by following rules, can just fake it all."

It is only your opinion that she excluded everyone but the UPC. She never once states such in any post in this discussion. With no disrespect meant toward you, then I cannot agree with your conclusion and opinion of her post.

[n david]

Originally Posted by n david

What is constructive about this thread? Seriously, what's the point, other than to have yet another thread targeting the UPC for something?

How do you know people are faking?

What facts and evidence do you have to back up the claim that "a great many" do what you accuse them of doing.

Why would people go through the trouble when it's much easier to fake it in a denominal church where it's one prayer and you're golden?

What are your suggestions to ensure people aren't faking it in the UPC? Tongue check? Monitor the saints at their homes and work? Make people write an essay on the plan of salvation to make sure they really know and aren't just pretending.

Just a few questions.

Bump for ILG

[n david]

Originally Posted by Reader

She did clarify when she wrote, "Regardless, ANY church, that has a way that people can be "in" simply by following rules, can just fake it all."

It is only your opinion that she excluded everyone but the UPC. She never once states such in any post in this discussion. With no disrespect meant toward you, then I cannot agree with your conclusion and opinion of her post.

We'll disagree on this.