The Question No One Can Answer

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

The Bible.

It's appointed for man to die... after that comes the judgement.

The Bible indicates that there is a time period between death and the judgment. For example, the souls of the martyrs in the book of Revelation are crying out for justice... and the judgment doesn't follow until the end of the Revelation.

[KeptByTheWord]

I've not answered your question, because you really won't accept any answer except the answer you think you know, which is "you don't know." lol...

You are right in that no one "KNOWS" for sure while here in this life, exactly how it will be in the next life. Regardless of what awaits us in the afterlife, though, there are enough clues in the world around us to show us that God's ways are higher, and far better than ours.

For example: A seed that is dried up, and lifeless must be put into the ground, and buried, before it will begin to produce new life. How does that work? How can this be?

Can you explain how you got here? How was your life created? Were you the Creator of your own life?

These sorts of questions are a good place to start with to try to find solid ground to begin to understand these concepts that man has wrestled with ever since he was created. Until you can explain how you got here, and why, then you won't be able to explain where you are going when you die.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Lafon

And, God did just that! Do you question the "indisputable" veracity of the God-inspired words of Psalm 33:4, which explicitly states that "For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth"? Of course, if you believe it to imply something else, then apparently you have some learning to do. As for me, I accept it as written.



Am I to accept this statement to imply that you're questioning my integrity? If so, then shame on you! You don't know me, nor do I know you. I accept the things you write as representative of your "honest" beliefs. What prevents you from also accepting the statements I publicly express in the same manner?

Sorry, I was not questioning your integrity, I was making a statement of fact.

I certainly believe THE Word of God is indisputable. What is disputable is the interpretation that humans place on the scriptures. Since I personally have experienced growth and maturity in understanding, I recognize "intellectually" that my earlier understanding was disputable. It is therefore reasonable to also believe that my current understanding is disputable.

What God has spoken is absolute truth, however the moment it is handled by humans it becomes disputable. I have no dispute with Psalms 33:4, nor has anything I have posted contradicted that verse.

Our understanding is by faith, and we must have a heart for the Lord, and to continually seek to KNOW Him as he really is. And that, my friend, is lifetime pursuit.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Timmy

You must have missed it when Lafon defined "indisputable":



Yes. Something is indisputable because Lafon believes it.

Booyah!

You bad, Timmy!!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Is God a respecter of persons? Absolutely not!

Seeing Paul wrote that he was caught up to the 3rd heaven, where there he saw and heard things which it was not lawful for him to disclose, then why should we think it unreasonable, yea, impossible, that God would not do the same thing for a saint today?

If you or I believe God will do the same thing for us, and we are living a life that is pleasing in His sight, then why not ask Him to do it?

Would you believe it if someone told you that they have done just that? Probably not, that is, if you continue to be as skeptical as your comments appear to indicate you to be!

All things are according to one's belief! Believe it and receive it. Refuse to believe and you'll not receive! Simple? Indeed!

I seek to know God, as he really is, and I believe I know Him much more as He really is than I did when I started my journey of faith. I today continue to desire to KNOW the Eternal more "perfectly". I know He is good, and that His most dominant characteristic is LOVE, therefore I am skeptical of doctrines that portray Him otherwise. So in one sense I understand and agree with your post, but I still believe there is much room for dispute. I even believe it is biblical to dispute with God when it seems what we have embraced as truth doesn't work out. Moses certainly did, and God relented. Maybe He even wants us to stand up and argue.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

IMO, the younger the age the more we should question. Children have a huge imagination and any number of things could cause this child to say what he did.

My kids were looking through our photo albums when they couldn't even walk, and pictures can plant inside the library of our mind, even at a young age.

I've had way too many people come to me with dreams/visions, thinking they meant something. Sorry, but I've resorted to other methods to conclude truth in my life.

I believe the kid had an experience that was extraordinary, and it was a spiritual experience, and that he learned things in that state that were impossible in the physical. We are spiritual beings having a physical experience, so sometimes there is layover. I do believe NDE's give evidence of continuing life beyond death of our physical bodies, however imperfect that evidence may be.

However, I do not believe that we can take what he experienced as doctrine, because the meaning he and his family place on it is interpreted thru their lens of experience, etc. I especially don't believe his theological interpretations are "indisputable".

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

If I can't prove what he is saying is true, then I believe it is a lie.

And therein lies the problem. You are making the onus of reliability your own ability to prove something as true or false, and not upon the honesty and integrity of the source. You refuse to accept by faith anything that is not empirically verifiable?

If so, that's just plain stupid.

Why not simply say, "If I can't prove what he is saying is true, then I have no solid basis upon which I can rest my belief"?

Why does it have to become a "lie"? A lie is an intentional falsification of facts intended to deceive. You think so evil of a 4 year old child?

So let me ask you:

What do you believe about Jesus?

Jesus said the following, empirically unproveable statements:

- That He was sent from God the Father
- That God Himself was His Father
- That He came from Heaven
- That whosoever believes on Him will never die but have everlasting life
- That whoever believes on Him passes from death to life
- That some will go away to everlasting punishment, and some "in the world to come life everlasting" (Luke 18:30)

Can you or do you believe these things? If not, or if since you cannot prove them, are these statements now lies, thus making Jesus, like the child you discredit, a LIAR?

You want people to answer what you think is an impossible question. Here is a question for you that is not impossible to answer:

Do you believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and all who believe on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Sorry, but I don't believe in backsliding. Reason; there is no way to gauge backsliding, unless, you believe in lies about yourself.

Being backslid is easily gauged. Are you now equal distance to, farther from, or closer to, the Object from which you might backslid, i.e. God?

If you answer "farther from" you are backslid.

How easy can it get?

If I push a stone up a hill, with the goal of reaching the top, but then, for whatever reason, let it roll back and downward any degree, is it not backslid?

Obviously. So too are you and me and anyone else who rolls back and downward, spiritually speaking.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Eternal Damnation/Heaven of the New Testament is not found in the Old Testament. This my friend, is a problem, a Religious problem.

Say what?

From the KJV:

Heaven is used 313 times in the OT.

Heavens is used 108 times in the OT.

For ever is used 329 times in the OT.

For ever and ever is used 25 times in the OT.

Everlasting is used 65 times in the OT.

In Psalm 112:6, it speaks of God holding the righteous in an everlasting rememberance, i.e. eternal life in heaven.

In Psalm 145:13, Daniel 4:3, and Daniel 7:27, we are told God's kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom.

Indeed, Daniel 7, after speaking of the four beasts and the little horn, plainly states that God's Kingdom of Heaven is eternal (See Daniel 7:13-28).

Of special note is Daniel 7:18,

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Isaiah 45:17 speaks of God's everlasting salvation.

Regarding Eternal Damnation:

Psalm 9:5,

Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

Daniel 12:2,

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Isaiah 66:24,

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The Lord Jesus quoted this very verse three times in succession at the end of Mark 9 in reference to people going into "hell", i.e. Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire (See also Isaiah 34:1-10).

Jeremiah 23:40,

And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

These are eternal condemnations pronounced against certain people by God.

All are Old Testament.

So is your statement accurate or would you like to withdraw?

[votivesoul]

Finally, to answer your question:

Revelation 20-22,

Chapter 20

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Chapter 21

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Chapter 22

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

There is a difference between mere belief (i.e. something one believes because they assume a fact to be true even without knowing), and actual belief. Actual belief is knowledge.

Said another way knowledge is justified belief.

I am justified in my belief that the three chapters posted above given an accurate, God-ordained answer to your question. This means I KNOW.

You can argue and squabble if you want, and whatever.

But note: the verses above have nothing to do with "religion" as you use the term. John either saw a vision from God and faithfully transcribed the vision into words, or HE DIDN'T.

Do what you want with that.