Respect as Women

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Right, it would be their choice. But it is not as simple as your post makes it sound. In truth, the reality is that you can feel excluded by not following the rules. While lining out your defense, you have to add in this detail into the issue and conversation. It is a huge choice to have to make.

True.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, women do make choices. But your girls aren't women. They are underage and live in your house and under your care. They pretty much have to deal with whatever you and your husband are doing and where you attend church. I only refer to them as you have already mentioned your discussions with them. Although, I would respect you and your family by not going too far with the discussion here.

I am only looking at that as though my own children lived with me. I am just saying that giving them a choice would have caused a divide in my home if one child was sitting on the fence. If I am following the will of God, and we have, they are part of that choice.

My daughter is very talented and has to be "doing" something all the time. Now that she is older and gone, she has had to make that choice - because it was hers to make. While others followed the standards they didn't believe in, to keep their positions, she opted to be truthful about it and lost hers. So, going between two churches that are polar opposites, she wants to be in the one where she feels freedom in the Spirit. That choice happens to be a standard teaching church.

Anyway, from my perspective, it just isn't as easy as you made it sound in your posts. That's all I am saying. In the discussion of "choices", I am saying that I want to lay everything on the table. You didn't mention the difficulty that can be involved and I simply wanted to do that here.

My impression of your posts is that you love the conservative world you live in, so it is not toxic to you. Would that be correct?

PO, I think the difference is that Miss B said these were her theories and have yet to be played out in their lives. She said she could even be wrong. On the other hand, you have seen your children grow up and have to make the hard choices. And they are hard choices.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, women do make choices. But your girls aren't women. They are underage and live in your house and under your care. They pretty much have to deal with whatever you and your husband are doing and where you attend church. I only refer to them as you have already mentioned your discussions with them. Although, I would respect you and your family by not going too far with the discussion here.

I am only looking at that as though my own children lived with me. I am just saying that giving them a choice would have caused a divide in my home if one child was sitting on the fence. If I am following the will of God, and we have, they are part of that choice.

We allow choice in the issues that we already feel are optional. We don't allow our children to choose sin. We have taught them what we believe is right and scriptural, and anything that lies beyond that is for them to pick up on their own. Our pastor doesn't teach dress standards from the pulpit, (other than generically teaching on modesty in dress and behavior) so the only time they hear about rules is from us or when they're going over a list of rules for church camp.

My daughter is very talented and has to be "doing" something all the time. Now that she is older and gone, she has had to make that choice - because it was hers to make. While others followed the standards they didn't believe in, to keep their positions, she opted to be truthful about it and lost hers. So, going between two churches that are polar opposites, she wants to be in the one where she feels freedom in the Spirit. That choice happens to be a standard teaching church.

I don't agree with the way you presented this. I don't have to agree with something in order to practice it or keep it. Submission is about submitting to someone else's will instead of your own. IMO, submission isn't even involved if there's no disagreement--you're simply doing what you already wanted to do, otherwise. I certainly don't believe it's dishonest or lying, unless you couple your practice with verbal assertion that you agree with or believe something that you don't. I can think of several rules that I follow that I don't agree with. How does that make me (or anyone else) dishonest?

Anyway, from my perspective, it just isn't as easy as you made it sound in your posts. That's all I am saying. In the discussion of "choices", I am saying that I want to lay everything on the table. You didn't mention the difficulty that can be involved and I simply wanted to do that here.

My impression of your posts is that you love the conservative world you live in, so it is not toxic to you. Would that be correct?

There are things about the conservative church world that I don't love, and I realize that under certain leadership it can become toxic very quickly. That's why I stated in an earlier post that church leadership determines, to a very large extent, whether your experience is positive or negative. Overall, our experience has been positive where we are now (where we've been for 14 years), but if we had remained in our former church, it would have been much different. I don't know how it would have affected me or our children in the longterm to be under a different type of leadership.

Whether the way we have handled our girls has simplified their choices or made them more complicated in the long run remains to be seen.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

PO, I think the difference is that Miss B said these were her theories and have yet to be played out in their lives. She said she could even be wrong. On the other hand, you have seen your children grow up and have to make the hard choices. And they are hard choices.

I do understand that she stated they are her theories. I am just thinking that if I had given my daughter a choice, we would have had chaos in our home. It would have been chaos because we taught them no matter how hard the situation, we must find the will of God for our lives. That was more important than a "choice". I'm pretty simplistic about it - you can't have a choice out of the will of God. That is my pragmatic view.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I do understand that she stated they are her theories. I am just thinking that if I had given my daughter a choice, we would have had chaos in our home. It would have been chaos because we taught them no matter how hard the situation, we must find the will of God for our lives. That was more important than a "choice". I'm pretty simplistic about it - you can't have a choice out of the will of God. That is my pragmatic view.

At this point, their "choices" have been limited and small. They don't have the choice to skip church, commit sin, post obscenities on Facebook, leave the house dressed immodestly, or do anything else contrary to the character we expect them to display as Christians. We do allow them a choice in matters that we deem to be optional and not salvational. For instance, we don't tell them they can't wear jewelry, but they aren't allowed to wear it to church. (with the exception of watches and class/purity rings, which are allowed) Both of them have worn necklaces and bracelets at some point, and both of them have phased them out completely for various reasons. We contributed to some of that reasoning, but we didn't force the issue. Allowing them control over this small issue didn't cause chaos, and I'm not sure how it could have.

Of course, we also encourage our children to seek God's will for their lives, above everything else, and I'm not sure how that relates to the topic of standards.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

We allow choice in the issues that we already feel are optional. We don't allow our children to choose sin. We have taught them what we believe is right and scriptural, and anything that lies beyond that is for them to pick up on their own. Our pastor doesn't teach dress standards from the pulpit, (other than generically teaching on modesty in dress and behavior) so the only time they hear about rules is from us or when they're going over a list of rules for church camp.

I certainly didn't think you would allow a choice of sin. If they keep the standards on the platform and in leadership, then they are being taught along with his modesty in dress and behavior. When he speaks on that issue, the audience understands the teaching to be what they see.

I don't agree with the way you presented this. I don't have to agree with something in order to practice it or keep it. Submission is about submitting to someone else's will instead of your own. IMO, submission isn't even involved if there's no disagreement--you're simply doing what you already wanted to do, otherwise. I certainly don't believe it's dishonest or lying, unless you couple your practice with verbal assertion that you agree with or believe something that you don't. I can think of several rules that I follow that I don't agree with. How does that make me (or anyone else) dishonest?

How I presented it was the facts of a situation. Just wanted to be clear about that. I am speaking about the hair issue. She felt it wasn't biblical to say she couldn't trim her hair, and so she trimmed it. Obviously, if you wear it down, you can see it is trimmed. She believes that as long as her hair is long, she is not violating scripture. To keep a leadership position, you can't believe or do that.

There are things about the conservative church world that I don't love, and I realize that under certain leadership it can become toxic very quickly. That's why I stated in an earlier post that church leadership determines, to a very large extent, whether your experience is positive or negative. Overall, our experience has been positive where we are now (where we've been for 14 years), but if we had remained in our former church, it would have been much different. I don't know how it would have affected me or our children in the longterm to be under a different type of leadership.

I agree - the whole thing rests on the leadership.

Whether the way we have handled our girls has simplified their choices or made them more complicated in the long run remains to be seen.

Very true. The main thing is that you have done your best and you love them dearly.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

...How I presented it was the facts of a situation. Just wanted to be clear about that. I am speaking about the hair issue. She felt it wasn't biblical to say she couldn't trim her hair, and so she trimmed it. Obviously, if you wear it down, you can see it is trimmed. She believes that as long as her hair is long, she is not violating scripture. To keep a leadership position, you can't believe or do that.

Ah, I see. So you mean, in the interest of honesty, she didn't put her hair up and hide the trimmed ends? I get that. I don't want my girls to feel the pressure to hide anything or lie about their choices.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

At this point, their "choices" have been limited and small. They don't have the choice to skip church, commit sin, post obscenities on Facebook, leave the house dressed immodestly, or do anything else contrary to the character we expect them to display as Christians. We do allow them a choice in matters that we deem to be optional and not salvational. For instance, we don't tell them they can't wear jewelry, but they aren't allowed to wear it to church. (with the exception of watches and class/purity rings, which are allowed) Both of them have worn necklaces and bracelets at some point, and both of them have phased them out completely for various reasons. We contributed to some of that reasoning, but we didn't force the issue. Allowing them control over this small issue didn't cause chaos, and I'm not sure how it could have.

Of course, we also encourage our children to seek God's will for their lives, above everything else, and I'm not sure how that relates to the topic of standards.

Perhaps location and individual personalities are always at play. If we taught that we couldn't wear jewelry and I allowed my daughter to wear it, she would have been confused.

How the will of God relates to standards is that if you are in a standard teaching church, and feel you are in the will of God, they are related.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Ah, I see. So you mean, in the interest of honesty, she didn't put her hair up and hide the trimmed ends? I get that. I don't want my girls to feel the pressure to hide anything or lie about their choices.

Right, she didn't hide it. My children don't fake anything. They are either in or out. Not always agreeing with some of their choices, at times, I am at least glad that I never witnessed them faking their worship. I just can't stand that.

[MissBrattified]

PO, more to the point of ILG's thread (although I think this is a good, if not predictable, rabbit trail), do you agree that the conservative church creates a framework of respect for women? I'm curious as to what you think of the conservative lifestyle outside of a rulebook or even any real or perceived scriptural mandate.

When I try to compartmentalize and look at our lifestyle impersonally and sort of "outside myself", I see that there are things I'm attached to and find beneficial and agreeable, regardless of whether they are scriptural. I definitely agree that there are old-fashioned values which support women in traditional roles, while those same values might hinder freedom of choice in non-traditional roles. Some of our practices make us stand apart from the secular world in a positive way, and even command respect.

I started a book from my sister some time ago called A Return to Modesty: Discovering the Lost Virtue by Wendy Shalit (a Jewish woman). She discusses modesty and its benefits at great length, initially from an outsider's POV. It's the most intellectual and fresh look at modesty I've ever read, although Steve Pixler's blog/book on modesty is still my favorite, particularly since it's from an Apostolic point of view.

When I encounter Muslim women at the grocery store or other women who obviously ascribe to modesty and conservatism, I feel appreciation for their choice and respect their ability to make a hard choice in such an immodest and liberal world. At the same time, I usually have a twinge of...something...hoping that it was indeed their choice, and they weren't forced into something that wasn't of their making. My take is that as long as the lifestyle is freely and knowledgeably chosen, it can be positive and beneficial. If the lifestyle is forced, it's negative from the get-go. Working from that theory, there has to be a way to both raise our children in the Apostolic church and still somehow allow them the leeway to mature into their choices or make as many of their own choices as possible.