What is Nature of Original Sin?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

See what I mean? Esaias attributes to Christ what was not even invented until like 1500 years later. The origin of the doctrine has been intentionally obscured from us, imo, and one cannot even have a conversation about the Law of sin and death anymore, with a Westerner...it's like trying to discuss prayer with a Catholic; Mother Mary keeps intervening

Put down the peace pipe and READ what I said. I did not attribute to Christ anything except what He Himself stated. I explained what a PROPONENT OF ORIGINAL SIN WOULD TEACH IN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION 'WHAT DEFILES A MAN'.

Do try to keep up, bro.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

"What defiles a man?"
You have made it "the fact that he was born a sinner;"
when Scripture says otherwise. This is a set-up, pure and simple.

Good grief man, who are you talking to?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jesus said that which defiles a man does not come from outside of himself, but from his heart. Therefore, according to Jesus, defilement proceeds from the heart. Notice, it proceeds from the heart and defiles the man.

10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. 16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Look at that again - "These are the things which defile a man:"

These are the things which defile a man:

These are the things which defile a man:

What are the things that defile a man?

"...evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies"...

These are the things which defile a man:

Adam's sin and guilt is not that which defile YOU or anyone else except Adam. According to Jesus Christ, the 'Final WORD on the subject', it is SIN which defiles a man.

Adultery defiles the man. Murder defiles the man. Theft defiles the man. Fornication defiles the man. Evil thoughts defile the man. Blasphemies defile the man.

SIN defiles the man, not only the outward action, but the inward 'evil thoughts' as well. THESE are THE THINGS that defile the man.

But according to the proponents of 'original sin', the man is already defiled before any such things happen! Before any evil thoughts ever appeared, certainly before any murders, thefts, fornications, blasphemies, etc ever transpired! The man was already defiled by Adam's sin. Thus, Jesus is in error, according to the doctrine of original sin, because He said it was the man's OWN SINS (including his sins of the heart, his 'evil thoughts') that defile him.

Jesus had the PERFECT opportunity to explain and expound and reveal to his disciples the doctrine of original sin in this instance. The subject was 'what defiles a man?' If you ask a proponent of original sin 'what defiles a man?' what would he say? If a teacher who believes that all men are defiled at conception by inherited 'original sin', and he was going to teach theology students and prospective evangelists and pastors on the subject of 'what defiles a man?' he could not fail to teach 'Adam's sin, called original sin, inherited at conception, intrinsic to the very human nature all men possess, defiles the man. For from the inherited sin nature of original sin proceed all the actual sins a man may commit. But he is defiled to begin with. He does not become a sinner because he sins, but he sins because he is a sinner! His defilement is not the result or consequence of his sins, but his sins are the result or consequence of his defilement!'

And such a one would be teaching 180 degrees opposite to what the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught on the very subject.

How strange...

The passage in mark 7 clearly states that man is defiled by what is in his heart and it also clearly states that before he commits any sin it is already in his heart. So my question to you is how can man's heart be difiled by committed sin if that sin has to first be in his heart defiling him before he commits it? Also this begs the question if before man sins it is already in his heart when did it get there?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Luke

The passage in mark 7 clearly states that man is defiled by what is in his heart and it also clearly states that before he commits any sin it is already in his heart.

Wrong. You have limited 'sins' to outward actions. Jesus defined sin as including 'evil thoughts', 'covetousness', 'lasciviousness', 'an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness', etc. These are the inward thoughts or attitudes of the heart, and they are identified as sinful by our Lord. Furthermore, He specifically said this about those things -

"All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." They come from within, ie not only the inward evil thoughts and attitudes, but even the outward actions 'come from within'. And finally, He proves my point and refutes your contentions, by declaring in no uncertain terms these things (the sins, both outward, and inward) 'defile the man'. It is THESE THINGS which defile the man.

Will you accept what He says at face value? THESE THINGS are THE THINGS which defile the man.

So my question to you is how can man's heart be difiled by committed sin if that sin has to first be in his heart defiling him before he commits it?

The inward evil thoughts DEFILE THE MAN, as I stated repeatedly, as JESUS HIMSELF DECLARED.

Also this begs the question if before man sins it is already in his heart when did it get there?

If sin is in a man's heart, HE HAS SINNED. This idea of 'if sin is in there in his heart BEFORE HE SINS' is a false dilemma, and continues the deceptive nonsense that 'sins' are merely outward actions only.

But the bible tells us where sin comes from -

James chapter 1 -

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

The bible here once again patently refutes original sin doctrine, in the 13th verse - it commands us NOT TO SAY God tempts us with evil. Yet the original sin doctrine maintains that God, who formed us in the womb, formed us with a sin nature and made us incapable of not sinning, thus 'tempting us with evil'.

Further, James here describes the process of defilement of a man - Lust, (ie DESIRE), draws a man away... and CONCEIVES.

Conception requires two things, a male and female. In this regard, desire ('lust') is the 'womb' or 'mother' of SIN. So what is the father? It must be THE WILL OF THE INDIVIDUAL. The 'man is enticed' - his will is drawn away from the right way, and drawn by DESIRE... and unites with that lust to CONCEIVE SIN. Sin is the RESULT of desire being joined to the WILL OF THE MAN.

The HEART - the heart of man surrenders to DESIRE, and the result is SIN.

'Oh, but those desires must be evil! That is the original sin!' I can hear it already.

How did Eve sin? Scripture says she saw the forbidden fruit was 'desireable'. IE she LUSTED for it - she DESIRED it.

Did she have a 'sin nature'? Original sin? Lurking in the heart BEFORE SHE SINNED? (a contradiction, by the way, but never mind about that...)

No. She was tempted, the 'lust' (desire) was there, and she GAVE IN TO IT. Her heart (will) joined with the desire to conceive and bring forth SIN (disobedience to the command of God).

Before you go saying 'any temptation is sinful', keep this in mind -

Hebrews 4:15 says 'For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.'

Temptation means DESIRE ENTICES YOUR WILL. Sin means your will has SURRENDERED TO THE DESIRE.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Good grief man, who are you talking to?

Ha, I'm agreeing with you, then; 2nd 'you' down there, the common one.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Esaias

...You have limited 'sins' to outward actions. Jesus defined sin as including 'evil thoughts', 'covetousness', 'lasciviousness', 'an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness', etc. These are the inward thoughts or attitudes of the heart, and they are identified as sinful by our Lord. Furthermore, He specifically said this about those things -

"All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." They come from within, ie not only the inward evil thoughts and attitudes, but even the outward actions 'come from within'. And finally, He proves my point and refutes your contentions, by declaring in no uncertain terms these things (the sins, both outward, and inward) 'defile the man'. It is THESE THINGS which defile the man.

Will you accept what He says at face value? THESE THINGS are THE THINGS which defile the man.



The inward evil thoughts DEFILE THE MAN, as I stated repeatedly, as JESUS HIMSELF DECLARED.



If sin is in a man's heart, HE HAS SINNED. This idea of 'if sin is in there in his heart BEFORE HE SINS' is a false dilemma, and continues the deceptive nonsense that 'sins' are merely outward actions only.

But the bible tells us where sin comes from -

James chapter 1 -

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

The bible here once again patently refutes original sin doctrine, in the 13th verse - it commands us NOT TO SAY God tempts us with evil. Yet the original sin doctrine maintains that God, who formed us in the womb, formed us with a sin nature and made us incapable of not sinning, thus 'tempting us with evil'.

Further, James here describes the process of defilement of a man - Lust, (ie DESIRE), draws a man away... and CONCEIVES.

Conception requires two things, a male and female. In this regard, desire ('lust') is the 'womb' or 'mother' of SIN. So what is the father? It must be THE WILL OF THE INDIVIDUAL. The 'man is enticed' - his will is drawn away from the right way, and drawn by DESIRE... and unites with that lust to CONCEIVE SIN. Sin is the RESULT of desire being joined to the WILL OF THE MAN.

The HEART - the heart of man surrenders to DESIRE, and the result is SIN.

'Oh, but those desires must be evil! That is the original sin!' I can hear it already.

How did Eve sin? Scripture says she saw the forbidden fruit was 'desireable'. IE she LUSTED for it - she DESIRED it.

Did she have a 'sin nature'? Original sin? Lurking in the heart BEFORE SHE SINNED? (a contradiction, by the way, but never mind about that...)

No. She was tempted, the 'lust' (desire) was there, and she GAVE IN TO IT. Her heart (will) joined with the desire to conceive and bring forth SIN (disobedience to the command of God).

Before you go saying 'any temptation is sinful', keep this in mind -

Hebrews 4:15 says 'For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.'

Temptation means DESIRE ENTICES YOUR WILL. Sin means your will has SURRENDERED TO THE DESIRE.

Amen.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Wrong. You have limited 'sins' to outward actions. Jesus defined sin as including 'evil thoughts', 'covetousness', 'lasciviousness', 'an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness', etc. These are the inward thoughts or attitudes of the heart, and they are identified as sinful by our Lord. Furthermore, He specifically said this about those things -

"All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." They come from within, ie not only the inward evil thoughts and attitudes, but even the outward actions 'come from within'. And finally, He proves my point and refutes your contentions, by declaring in no uncertain terms these things (the sins, both outward, and inward) 'defile the man'. It is THESE THINGS which defile the man.

Will you accept what He says at face value? THESE THINGS are THE THINGS which defile the man.



The inward evil thoughts DEFILE THE MAN, as I stated repeatedly, as JESUS HIMSELF DECLARED.



If sin is in a man's heart, HE HAS SINNED. This idea of 'if sin is in there in his heart BEFORE HE SINS' is a false dilemma, and continues the deceptive nonsense that 'sins' are merely outward actions only.

But the bible tells us where sin comes from -

James chapter 1 -

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

The bible here once again patently refutes original sin doctrine, in the 13th verse - it commands us NOT TO SAY God tempts us with evil. Yet the original sin doctrine maintains that God, who formed us in the womb, formed us with a sin nature and made us incapable of not sinning, thus 'tempting us with evil'.

Further, James here describes the process of defilement of a man - Lust, (ie DESIRE), draws a man away... and CONCEIVES.

Conception requires two things, a male and female. In this regard, desire ('lust') is the 'womb' or 'mother' of SIN. So what is the father? It must be THE WILL OF THE INDIVIDUAL. The 'man is enticed' - his will is drawn away from the right way, and drawn by DESIRE... and unites with that lust to CONCEIVE SIN. Sin is the RESULT of desire being joined to the WILL OF THE MAN.

The HEART - the heart of man surrenders to DESIRE, and the result is SIN.

'Oh, but those desires must be evil! That is the original sin!' I can hear it already.

How did Eve sin? Scripture says she saw the forbidden fruit was 'desireable'. IE she LUSTED for it - she DESIRED it.

Did she have a 'sin nature'? Original sin? Lurking in the heart BEFORE SHE SINNED? (a contradiction, by the way, but never mind about that...)

No. She was tempted, the 'lust' (desire) was there, and she GAVE IN TO IT. Her heart (will) joined with the desire to conceive and bring forth SIN (disobedience to the command of God).

Before you go saying 'any temptation is sinful', keep this in mind -

Hebrews 4:15 says 'For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.'

Temptation means DESIRE ENTICES YOUR WILL. Sin means your will has SURRENDERED TO THE DESIRE.

Mark 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Please note that Jesus says it is what comes out of the man that defiled him so it has to be in there before it can come out.

Also James says it is a mans own list that draws him away it was already there.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Luke

Mark 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Please note that Jesus says it is what comes out of the man that defiled him so it has to be in there before it can come out.

Also James says it is a mans own list that draws him away it was already there.

And your point is? Like I said, it was THOSE THINGS that defile the man, per Jesus.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And your point is? Like I said, it was THOSE THINGS that defile the man, per Jesus.

All of those things are already in a man before he commits any of them and his heart is already defiled before he commits any sin because any sin he commits is already VB in his heart.

This begs the question when did those things get there?

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Put down the peace pipe and READ what I said. I did not attribute to Christ anything except what He Himself stated. I explained what a PROPONENT OF ORIGINAL SIN WOULD TEACH IN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION 'WHAT DEFILES A MAN'.

Do try to keep up, bro.

Originally Posted by Esaias

...Jesus had the PERFECT opportunity to explain and expound and reveal to his disciples the doctrine of original sin in this instance...

ok, well, this is confusing language. Jesus taught the Law of sin and death, and you are providing a would-have-been case, here, I guess, which could not have ever happened.