The Security of the Believer

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Anyone have an idea of when one's name is written in the book of life and how it gets there?

Bump.

[Luke]

What do you do with these scriptures:

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[PastorTLArt]

Originally Posted by Luke

What do you do with these scriptures:

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I dont see anything in any of these scriptures that are quoted here that say anything about a believer "losing salvation"?

[Luke]

Sorry those were in response to the idea of universalism.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Luke

What do you do with these scriptures:

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.


Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In order of your list:
1). I believe Jesus is speaking symbolically of "the body or community" if you cannot get along with some folks it is better to discontinue fellowship, than to hang together and endure "eonion" fire. Or a time or age of dissension in relationship. He certainly is not recommending bodily mutilation!!

2). "Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." The goats go into an age of corrective punishment or judgment "the setting of things right", the righteous go into an age of life. The words everlasting and eternal here, in the Greek is "eonion" which is a period of time, it is not speaking of the final destiny of these folks. He was speaking of the age to come, or the next age, not infinity.

3). Those that blaspheme the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the next, they will face the GWTJ, and the purifying lake of fire. "God is a refiners fire", He will not give up on anyone, age by age all will come to right relationship with God and everyone else, until God is "all in all". He is the (1Tim 4:10) "...Savior of all men, especially of those who believe..." in this age.

4). Luke 16 is one of five parables in a series: It is symbolic of the Jews and the Gentiles, the Jew were favored and "rich", then they were cut off because they rejected the Messiah. Then the Gentiles "beggars" became into favor and the Jews have languished and been abused ever since. But have no fear, God blinded their eyes for a time "age", and that time is about done. The times "age" of the Gentiles is about complete. God is completing His plan age by age, until ALL are complete. No robots, mature folks that understand good and evil, which we would not know except for the contrast that humanity has experience thru the ages. You would have no concept of light if not for darkness, nor good if not for evil.

5). Finally, for those that have not believed yet, they haven't entered into life yet, God's wrath or judgment is upon them. Yes, that is true. Scripture says that when God's judgment is in the earth, men learn righteousness. Judgment is a good thing.

We have been taught that God is a bumbling failure, having to do redoes and mulligans over and over. It is not true, we have been sold a bill of goods, God has and is working His plans thru the ages, men get impatient and out of ignorant conjure up all kinds of excuses for God not doing things on human time lines. "Fear not" Jesus said, "I have overcome the world". Everything is coming to pass right on time, and it is ALL GOOD! "I bring you tidings of joy, peace on earth and GOOD WILL to ALL MEN!!!" The gospel really is good news, Jesus completed the sacrifice for the sins of the world. We should be shouting the great news to all we see!

[Luke]

You are twisting these scriptures by paying know attention at all to what they plainly say:

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

The clear message says it would be better to cut your hand, foot or to pluck out your eye rather than to burn in hell for all eternity. This makes perfect sense if one believes in the authenticity of the Bible especialy when the scriptures are taken at face value. Jesus is not commanding self mutilation He is simply saying that it would be better to suffer temprol pain if need be than to suffer for all eternity in "hell fire" (Jesus in Matthew 18:9)

As to your statement:
The words everlasting and eternal here, in the Greek is "eonion" which is a period of time, it is not speaking of the final destiny of these folks. He was speaking of the age to come, or the next age, not infinity.

THIS NOT AT ALL TRUE!!!!! THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE!!!!!!!
The word everlasting and eternal both are a translation of the greek word <aionios> which can be found in the strongs greek dictionary numbering as G166 it is defined by Thayers as:
1. without beginning and end that which always been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, NEVER TO CEASE, everlasting

Strong's defines it as:
Perpetual(aslo used of past time, or past and future as well):- eternal, FOR EVER, everlasting, wold(began).

There is no where even any HINT OF ANY ENDING POINT!

[Luke]

Where does the Bible ever say that after death people are given a second chance?
Also does the Bible EVER teach or say that souls are made pure by the lake of fire?
The doctrine you are purporting is the HERETICAL CATHOLIC doctrine of PURGATORY but then you have also added UNIVERSALISM.

Although PURGATORY is a very unbiblical doctrine they do say that it is not for the unbelieveing sinners but only for those in God's grace. The Following quote is from the website www.Catholic.com/tracts/purgatory
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

As to Luke 16 this is not a parable but rather a true story this can be seen in that it is said to a parable also in no parable is anyone named but here we see that Lazarus is specificly named.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Luke

You are twisting these scriptures by paying know attention at all to what they plainly say:

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

The clear message says it would be better to cut your hand, foot or to pluck out your eye rather than to burn in hell for all eternity. This makes perfect sense if one believes in the authenticity of the Bible especialy when the scriptures are taken at face value. Jesus is not commanding self mutilation He is simply saying that it would be better to suffer temprol pain if need be than to suffer for all eternity in "hell fire" (Jesus in Matthew 18:9)

As to your statement:
The words everlasting and eternal here, in the Greek is "eonion" which is a period of time, it is not speaking of the final destiny of these folks. He was speaking of the age to come, or the next age, not infinity.

THIS NOT AT ALL TRUE!!!!! THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE!!!!!!!
The word everlasting and eternal both are a translation of the greek word <aionios> which can be found in the strongs greek dictionary numbering as G166 it is defined by Thayers as:
1. without beginning and end that which always been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, NEVER TO CEASE, everlasting

Strong's defines it as:
Perpetual(aslo used of past time, or past and future as well):- eternal, FOR EVER, everlasting, wold(began).

There is no where even any HINT OF ANY ENDING POINT!

There is much scripture and other support for my positions on this, WHY do you and traditionalist take the absolutely most harsh possible interpetation??

The cutting off of limbs is a parable, and it is absurd to believe that Jesus was speaking of the after life.

As to everlasting, the Greek WAS miss translated, the Greek is "eonian", many Greek scholars confirm that this is fact. Eonian is not eternal nor everlasting. Again you and the traditionalist, influenced by the Roman Stat Church, take the harsh, unbelieveable view that God is some kind of monster, that claims to be love, and that His love NEVER fails, OH, until one dies. Then he hates and has created the most horrible possible torture of humanity. The traditional "hell" had to come from evil and carnal men, no way it could come from the Heavenly Father, that has all power and love, knows all for the beginning. Makes absolutely no sense at all, and the fact is, neither you, nor the traditionists actually believe it. If you did you would go insane thinking of your loved ones the may go there, nor would you spend another moment on anything but shouting it from the street corner.

[Luke]

There is no scripture to support universalism if taken in context.

If you believe universalism then please answer this question why did Jesus have to die?

[supertone]

I think it would be absolutely fantastic if everyone was redeemed and we could all live in the afterlife with our Lord together in peace and harmony... however, I'm not quite sure that is what the Bible teaches. I don't think that I take a harsh interpretation but the verses (as listed previously in this thread) are clear in their meaning and it is a stretch to not take them on face value.