Ministering to the Transgendered

[bbyrd009]

I think that this is naive of the institution of marriage.

[AreYouReady?]

Here is a story of a child who was "assigned" the sex of female by parents, but grew up and decided for himself that since he developed male characteristics, he had to go through courts to get his gender reassigned to male. [includes pictures of himself]

http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/BornHermaphrodite/

However, I do not think that the original post was talking about intersex people or the original poster implied such.

The only thing I am confused about is whether the wife chose to have a sex change or if it was chosen for her. That would be the only relevant question to be able to counsel this couple effectively. I would be leaning [in my thoughts] in the direction that if he/she chose the surgery before he/she met the husband and not told her husband of this choice he/she made, then it is deception and the man should be under no obligation to remain married or to be refused future marriage. It is a man's right to be able to have heirs to his name.

And even so...if the surgery to reassign gender to her was given while she was young and had no say, she was still obligated to tell her future spouse of this before marriage.

As in all cases, life, it's unknowns and situations we are limited in knowledge about...these sort of things we must just learn to lean on the Lord for His judgment and mercy.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Here is a story of a child who was "assigned" the sex of female by parents, but grew up and decided for himself that since he developed male characteristics, he had to go through courts to get his gender reassigned to male. [includes pictures of himself]

http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/BornHermaphrodite/

However, I do not think that the original post was talking about intersex people or the original poster implied such.

The only thing I am confused about is whether the wife chose to have a sex change or if it was chosen for her. That would be the only relevant question to be able to counsel this couple effectively. I would be leaning [in my thoughts] in the direction that if he/she chose the surgery before he/she met the husband and not told her husband of this choice he/she made, then it is deception and the man should be under no obligation to remain married or to be refused future marriage. It is a man's right to be able to have heirs to his name.

And even so...if the surgery to reassign gender to her was given while she was young and had no say, she was still obligated to tell her future spouse of this before marriage.

As in all cases, life, it's unknowns and situations we are limited in knowledge about...these sort of things we must just learn to lean on the Lord for His judgment and mercy.

I gave my reasons in a rather lengthly post about why I though this might be a case of early gender reassignment rather than willful destruction of normal genitalia for psychologic reasons. The OP had too little information for a real discussion of the cited case but only had a tidbit opener for a general discussion of the issues of surgical intervention of gender.

I agree with your above statement except in that it is possible that someone who was surgically resexed in childhood to have never had time to come to grips with, or even fully understand, what their situation truly is/was. I don't feel that abandonment of a spouse in that situation is any more justified than if they were simply sterile, carry genetic mutations or are otherwise physically imperfect. I think that as you said... those things are covered by God's mercy and mercy should likewise be extended by the rest of us.

[AreYouReady?]

Well...ok.

But if the spouse knew either way and did not tell her husband before he married her...that is deception. No marriage will last based on prior deception of any kind. These sorts of things should be talked out before marriage. Successful marriages have another key issue besides love...and that is trust.

EDIT:
But let me add this...if the man knew and accepted this when he married her, then that is a whole different matter that he should pray to God about for himself... not get the opinion and counsel from another man.

[Titus2woman]

So... truth...

Should a woman and a man have to diclose how many sexual partners they've had? Who they were? If there is any kind of possible genetic issue in their family that might affect future children, i.e. cancer, mental retardation, etc.? All previous sins? Debt? Bad habits? Character flaws? I'm for honesty but not stupidity.

I've seen several of our church girls at premarital appointments. Some have made mistakes in the past and are concerned... My advice... Repented sin can no longer be remembered by God... husbands are not quite so perfect. Be a good wife once you are married... That's what counts.

[Dordrecht]

I think a lot of these things are happening
because of incest.
That's why the statistics are high
in one area and very low in another
area.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

So... truth...

Should a woman and a man have to diclose how many sexual partners they've had? Who they were? If there is any kind of possible genetic issue in their family that might affect future children, i.e. cancer, mental retardation, etc.? All previous sins? Debt? Bad habits? Character flaws? I'm for honesty but not stupidity.

I've seen several of our church girls at premarital appointments. Some have made mistakes in the past and are concerned... My advice... Repented sin can no longer be remembered by God... husbands are not quite so perfect. Be a good wife once you are married... That's what counts.

T2w, having a sex change, either as a child or by one's own choice as an adult is not the same as the things you mention above.

A future spouse should at the very least be able to make an informed marital decision. Someone who was born a man and changed into a woman by surgical and supplemental hormonal therapy should have a moral obligation to tell "her" future husband. "She" would never be able to have children. When all is said and done...she still has her original male DNA. That does not change. Is it fair to a man who has always wanted children to discover after marriage that his wife used to be a "he"?

But to answer your question about all the other issues, I feel it is best to discuss all pertinent issues with one's spouse to be ... before marriage. Yes, that includes everything you mentioned. If engaged people decided between themselves that past lovers are or are not important, then they made that decision together.

If I had a disease such as Huntington's Chorea, I would definitely want my future husband to know what would become of me 20 years into our marriage and that there is a 50/50 chance our children would inherit my genes. If he cannot deal with this information, then we do not need to be married.

If people dive into marriage even after knowingly and accepting all human flaws (and there is not one among us who does not have physical or character flaws) then he or she has accepted and loves this person unconditionally.

My husband knew all my physical and emotional flaws before we married. He knew my past moral failures simply because I felt that he was entitled to know them before we married...so it would not come back to bite me in the butt later on. He knew. He loved me then, he still loves me now...28 years later and we do not have added stress to marriage because of something he should have been aware of before our marriage.

If a man or a woman cannot accept each other's past mistakes, physical or mental flaws before marriage, then they do not need to be married. If they cannot accept it before marriage, then they sure won't accept it after marriage and it becomes a "trap" and a miserable existence because of unacceptance.

What is so stupid about that?

[houston]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

I think a lot of these things are happening
because of incest.
That's why the statistics are high
in one area and very low in another
area.

What?

[Titus2woman]

AYR asked 'what is so stupid about that?'

In the real world... nothing. Don and I shared all our secrets.... and they were many. Of course our respective children were pretty obvious reminders that we had some history It all worked out fine.

Not the same at all for these 18-19 year old church girls who maybe had a boyfriend at 16 that they had a sexual encounter with. To have their engagement destroyed, their reputation ruined and their lives shattered by over-sharing information with an immature young man (their fiancee)... I'm just not for it. I know one woman who told all to her future husband before they married and still gets it thrown in her face every fight with gruesome detail and nasty name calling.... Pass on that. There is no obligation to share everything.

Now in the case of a willfull sex change...yes, it must be told. But someone who was assigned a gender early in life, IMVHO, at least has the right to try to live out their life with as much happiness as they can find. If what works for them is to tell all before, OK by me... if they wait to see if the marriage turns out to be a loving and trusting and share more later...OK too. And if not they will not have exposed themselves to ridicule before it winds up in the trash anyway like 60% of marriages do. It takes years to really know someone well enough to know if they can truly be trusted, so why bother laying it all out there?

I think all of us who are divorced can honestly say there was plenty we did not know about our ex-spouses before we tied the knot.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

AYR asked 'what is so stupid about that?'

In the real world... nothing. Don and I shared all our secrets.... and they were many. Of course our respective children were pretty obvious reminders that we had some history It all worked out fine.

Not the same at all for these 18-19 year old church girls who maybe had a boyfriend at 16 that they had a sexual encounter with. To have their engagement destroyed, their reputation ruined and their lives shattered by over-sharing information with an immature young man (their fiancee)... I'm just not for it. I know one woman who told all to her future husband before they married and still gets it thrown in her face every fight with gruesome detail and nasty name calling.... Pass on that. There is no obligation to share everything.

I, for all outward appearances, had the appearance of a pure holiness woman. I told my husband things about me after his proposal and before we married that even my roommates of several years and close friends did not know.

It turns out that 21 years into my marriage, my sister got viscously angry at me and I had to leave her home in order to keep from having a deep and sustained fight. After I left, she decided to give my brother and my husband an earful about my past in the deliberate attempt to deliver a mortal wound to me and my marriage. Only that did not work out for she underestimated the solidness of our marriage based on love for each other and for God and truth. She assumed that I kept certain things back from him.

My husband came home, seeing the attack for what it really was and commented on her motive for saying all of what she did about me. Some of what she said was correct, some was incorrect...pure embellishment on her part to make me look worse in the situation that I made for myself so many years before my husband and I met.

There are many first marriages that wrecked because the couple was not mature enough to marry in the first place. The love bug (is it really love or sexual desire?) bit them and for the first few years they love each other until reality sets in.

A sexual mistake at the age of 16 is pretty obvious that he/she was immature at the time it happened. It is an act that he/she should have to face the reality that it cannot be undone. If the engagement is destroyed, then the partner cannot deal with her immature act. He is expecting something that isn't and it is better if he knows it before marriage because there is always someone who knows and would be willing to divulge that information when it is convenient for them. Reputations change with a person's actions. Paul's reputation was of persecution to believers...until he repented and became a believer himself. Any mature adult who believes themselves to be Christian would consider her works since she repented of her sin.

As for the woman who told all to her future husband and he threw all of that into her face with every fight....this is on him. He cannot say that she deceived him beforehand. He is the one with a big problem and eventually this marriage will wreck ...not because of deception, but because he married her for the wrong reasons and cannot truly accept her as she is now. She hasn't broken his trust. He went into the marriage with his eyes wide open and now he brings back some past fault to rub her face in and that is not a loving husband.

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Now in the case of a willfull sex change...yes, it must be told. But someone who was assigned a gender early in life, IMVHO, at least has the right to try to live out their life with as much happiness as they can find. If what works for them is to tell all before, OK by me... if they wait to see if the marriage turns out to be a loving and trusting and share more later...OK too. And if not they will not have exposed themselves to ridicule before it winds up in the trash anyway like 60% of marriages do. It takes years to really know someone well enough to know if they can truly be trusted, so why bother laying it all out there?

Why bother laying it all out there? Because the old adage that "knowledge is power" is valid. Knowing what you are getting into helps you make informed decisions...that the other spouse does not feel cheated if he or she finds out something .

You lay it all out there and let the chips fall where they may. If the love doesn't last through the engagement with what they learn about each other, would it survive the shock after marriage?

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

I think all of us who are divorced can honestly say there was plenty we did not know about our ex-spouses before we tied the knot.

Yep. That is one reason why our previous marriages did not work.

My first hid the fact that I was # 3 and that he had been in prison twice before we married. Yep. He told me it was none of my business.

It surely was my business and would have made a big difference if I had known why I was #3 and what happened that landed him in prison...not once, but twice. That one was on me for not waiting long enough during engagement to get to know him better. At some point in time it would have come out before marriage ...just as it came out during our marriage. I would not have felt so deceived and then burned when he spit out it was none of my business.

Ok I confessed all of that so that maybe people might see why it is so important to be honest with future spouses.