Deathbed Salvation

[Amanah]

I think it's a good idea to strive towards what we believe the scripture teaches people should do, but not limit God to our limited understanding. There are many things that I think are likely that I hope I'm wrong about and It's comforting to leave things in God's hands and trust him with all of it.

[trialedbyfire]

The fact is, continuing with my last post...

If you believe that the plan of salvation is Romans 10:9 (confess and believe) you are still going to run into the same problems ANYONE else has.

What if they're mute and can't confess?
Is confession a prayer?
Can you just believe and not confess?
What if you believe, are on the way to the alter to confess and an earthquake destroys the whole city and kills you and the whole church?

Same thing with...

What if you believe and you're on your way to be baptized and get killed?
What if you go down in the water and your feet come up?
What if you go down in a pool and not a river?
What if you're allergic to water? (ROFL)

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I think it's a good idea to strive towards what we believe the scripture teaches people should do, but not limit God to our limited understanding. There are many things that I think are likely that I hope I'm wrong about and It's comforting to leave things in God's hands and trust him with all of it.

Amen.

To me it's funny that people are asking, "What do we do if somone is too sick and infirm to obey Acts 2:38 and wants to be saved before they die?"

Ummm... HELLO???

The Bible gives us procedures for the sick and infirm, that includes the dying:

James 5:14-15 (ESV)
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

It's actually straight forward. So, if a sick and dying man asks for prayer and is afraid he isn't right with God... what do you do? You anoint the man with oil and pray the prayer of faith, believing that God will honor His Word and save the man, forgiving any sins he has committed.

God gave us this provision for the sick and infirm for a reason people.

[Jay]

I know that this is not going to be popular, but I have found that most of the people I talk to have a pretty good understanding of who we are. This is especially true if they have been in the religious world very long. Those who obey the truth have left such a mark that many have chosen to ignore our doctrine and call us a 'cult'. We are not hidden in a corner in any portion of the world, further the more I study history, the more that I am convinced that we never have been.

Jonathan Edwards wrote against people who denied the reality of the Trinity. This has been a relatively common theme in certain prosecutions in church history. Further how many 'witches' were simple Bible believing people who would have fallen under the modern term of Pentecostal.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Jay

I know that this is not going to be popular, but I have found that most of the people I talk to have a pretty good understanding of who we are. This is especially true if they have been in the religious world very long. Those who obey the truth have left such a mark that many have chosen to ignore our doctrine and call us a 'cult'. We are not hidden in a corner in any portion of the world, further the more I study history, the more that I am convinced that we never have been.

Jonathan Edwards wrote against people who denied the reality of the Trinity. This has been a relatively common theme in certain prosecutions in church history. Further how many 'witches' were simple Bible believing people who would have fallen under the modern term of Pentecostal.

I would have to respectfully disagree Jay. I was saved at the age of 12 by Catholic standards when I was confirmed. I was saved at age 21 by Baptist standards when I repented of my sins, believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, confessed with my mouth, followed the Lord in Baptism by immersion, and joined the church. I was not saved by OP standards until I was nearly 40. In the nearly 20 years between I had no idea at all who OPs were and I live in an area with a VERY heavy UPCI presence and work with the public. I have triaged 100's of OP women over the years and had no idea why they wore their hair like that and no idea that they ALWAYS wore dresses and never pants. And I am not someone who is out of touch about religions. Working with medical people from all over the world I know Hindus, Muslims, Seiks, Mormons, JWs, Eastern Orthodox, Jews. I know the headcoverings of many faiths, Nuns veils, Muslims scarves, Amish prayer caps, etc. and have been taught to some extent how to recognize certain religious people as it realtes to how some of them approach medical treatment.

Living as what I would describe as a conservitive Christian for 2 decades I had never heard of the Oneness doctrine. I have noticed, being a Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal for over a decade now that we are not very evangelistic. We tend to judge ourselves by ourselves and to judge others by our ways... But they don't have a clue.

We get a minor mention in Zondervan's Book of the Cults but even that isn't much press.

[Le Penseur]

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

It's not about our understanding. There is ONE plan of salvation preached by the Apostles in scripture. Not ONE individual in scripture was led in a "sinners prayer", shook a pastors hand, and was called "saved" in the original Apostolic Church.

Let me address a few red herrings here:

1 - Jesus Christ IS God's plan of salvation. God's "plan of salvation" is not a how or what, it's a WHO. Jesus is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. That's God's plan of salvation. The fact that you believe in a 3-step "plan of salvation" does nothing to address the many who "tarry" for months to receive the "GIFT" of the Holy Ghost but have repented and have been baptized. Are they eternally lost because they did not speak in tongues, even though they have repented and been baptized? What example can you give me from scripture of someone who sought the Spirit for days/weeks/months? It further does nothing to explain how "doing" earns salvation. "Doing" specific things, in a specific order, in a technically specific way... is how to be saved. FAITH + NOTHING = SALVATION The New Testament is literally FULL of scripture passages that point to FAITH alone for salvation. If you're going to be hung up on what the apostles said, try reading some of their letters. (Note, you will not find anything even remotely resembling the OP understanding of Acts 2.38).

2 - I didn't say anything about a "sinners prayer" or a hand shake. What I DID say is that the moment the thief confessed his faith in Christ HE WAS SAVED. You insist that no one was saved until after Peter preached in Acts 2. But the Gospels are full of people who Christ confessed as forgiven because they put their trust and faith in Him. The problem could be that you are confusing faith with simply believing. Simply believing looks at a creed or doctrinal statement and says "yep, I believe that" and is no different for it. Saving faith comes with a changed mind (repentance) that trusts completely in the work that Jesus Christ performed on the cross. One is marking a checklist, the other is a changed life.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

There is not one recorded count of someone converting without being baptized IMMEDIATELY.

That is correct. Baptism is a commandment and serves as a proclamation, following Christ's example, that the believer has identified himself with Christ (baptized into Christ), just like the Jewish mikveh identified converts to Judaism. No argument here. All Christians should be baptized once they are converted.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

I perfer to do things the way they were done by the early church as recorded in scripture when it comes to issues of salvation and conversion. If you don't that's between YOU and God. That's not a cop out. I'm unequivocally saying there IS ONLY ONE WAY.

I used to be just as arrogant when I defended the doctrine, so I will forgive your obvious elitist tone. But if you are really being honest, you'll have to admit that scripture does not contain any other exact duplication/replication of what occurred in Acts 2 or what Peter stated in Acts 2.38. There are certainly pieces of it, but the overall theme is faith in Christ (at the preaching of Christ) and repentance.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

When are you all going to stop using the thief on the cross? Even if you totally disregard the dispensation in which the thief lived, we are talking about an EXTREME set of circumstances, that NOT ONE human being on the face of the Earth besides the thief himself can say that they themselves can say they have experienced. Scripture is clear that Jesus himself had the power to forgive sin on Earth. We have not had our sins pardoned face to face with Christ. Our pardonship comes directly from the New Birth.

When will we stop using the thief on the cross? As soon as someone gives a soundly Biblical response as to why it was easier for him to be saved that it is for anyone post-Pentecost. I'm in agreement that our "pardonship" (nice new word ) comes only from the new birth, just like Jesus said in John 3.16. He also forgave many others throughout the gospels - those who committed themselves to Him. You are speaking from a hermeneutic that requires you to only view people as saved AFTER the cross, AFTER the tomb, AFTER the resurrection, AFTER the ascension, and AFTER Pentecost. This is a principle that is not explicit from scripture. Jesus said that HE is the WAY. HE is salvation. Everything points to HIM... not to Pentecost.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

No the problem is that people want to "put" everybody in Heaven no matter how they lived their lives according to the scripture. I didn't come from a family with christian legacy or heritage of any kind. I came from a family of drug addicts, thieves, murderers, alcoholics, and gang bangers. I have so many dead lost loved ones it's ridiculous including a brother who died before even I got saved. I can't bother trying to justify their activities in my head, they are lost. They were great people... but they are lost.

What an awesome testimony you have! That's a wonderful witness that someone like you can come from such a messed up group of people and find glorious salvation in Christ! That's absolutely beautiful. But you should understand that I'm not wanting to "put" everybody in heaven no matter how they lived. I couldn't put anyone in heaven even if I tried. But Jesus DOES want to put people in heaven - yes, even those who have lived like hellions. If your deceased loved ones are lost, it's because they rejected Christ and died in their sin.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

It doesn't matter what "standard of salvation" that Christians go by is the "nicest". Either way if you say that ANYBODY is lost, SOMEBODY somewhere is going to bark about some out of this world, strange, never-going-to-happen, scenario questioning your doctrine. Even when you've watered the gospel down to "confess and believe" and lead the sinners prayer, people will start asking about random little Tibetan boys that never heard the name Jesus.

You may be confusing the issue with Universal Reconciliation. I believe it to be heresy, though there is at least one other poster here who believes in it. Either way, there is no watering down of the gospel by saying that you must believe in Christ. Those are Jesus' own words. The three-step doctrine is no-doubt a 20th century innovation that evolved from the Revivalist and Full Gospel movements. Otherwise, for 1800 years, no one was saved.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

The whole argument isn't based on scripture, it's based on made scenarios that we can't sit here and run through all day to address them all. God is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CAPABLE of saving everyone using his perfect plan of salvation according to Acts 2:38.

I don't know what this means.



The question that started this thread was about whether or not we believe God honors that.

I say no.

As for as this discussion goes yes my opinion matters because that's what this is about.

As far as the Bible, absolutely how I feel doesn't matter. It's what the word says.



There will be "last hour" newcomers, that has nothing to do with death bed repentance. To suggest it does is stretching the interpretation. We are about to see a massive worldwide end time revival, they will be the last day new comers before the ultimate return of our Lord and Savior.



This whole discussion is about experiences, mind you. That's the whole point, we sit here with all these examples of random situations to try to prove your point.



You just told me it's not about what "I think" and then ran in with some emotional example and then asked me again what I think the father would do.

Do you not see the ABSOLUTE hypcracy in these two statements?[/quote]No, I don't see any hypocrisy. It wasn't an emotional example, my point was that I was trying to provide an example that would be comparable. If I offended, I am sorry.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

Regardless of whether your a one stepper or a two stepper or a three stepper, SOME BODY is going to go off on you about God's love, mercy, and kindness. It's the same game the universalists play, and then they come up with their numerous scriptures, call the southern baptists legalists, and we're in this whole boat again.

This is another red herring. We're discussing soteriology, not name calling.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

It doesn't matter who you are, and how liberal you get SOMEBODY, SOMEWAY can call you a legalist up until you just straight up say "everyone is saved". Why? Because as soo as you say you need to believe people say why do you need to believe? As soon as you say faith is required people argue. As soon as you say saving faith produces work... people argue.

You can call me a "legalist" all you want, but the name calling is nothing but useless hyperbole and can be used against ANYBODY.

I didn't intend for it to be hyperbole, and I didn't make anything personal. All I said was that if you add anything to faith in regards to salvation, it is works. And salvation by works is legalism.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

God is a God of love mercy and kindness. To sit here and to say that Apostolics don't believe in God's mercy, love, and kindness, and that we look at our selves highly because we were baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost and "worked our way" into Heaven is ridiculous and dishonest. If it had not been for the Lord who he himself brought me to salvation, gave me a heart, a mind, and a desire to be obedient to his word I would not be hear typing, I'd probably be dead. I owe my salvation ENTIRELY to God as do we all. I can look back and see God's hand protecting me now and bringing me and guiding me through the new birth experience and continuing to guide me. HE ALONE is the deliverer of our souls. HE ALONE holds our souls in his hands.

I don't believe I did any of these things, but if you feel as though I did, please accept my sincere apology. I mean no offense. This is a theological discussion and I thought I represented my position pretty well. I never stated that Apostolics don't believe in God's mercy or love or kindness. But I will say that there is a great deal of spiritual elitism that permeates the ranks of the movement. I've witnessed it firsthand on a daily basis (and still do). When you say things like "only those who believe like I do are saved" or "only those who interpret Acts 2.38 the way we do are saved", you in essence are saying that those who do not are lost -- which DOES reek of spiritual superiority.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

On the minister's forum I started this thread with quite a bit of healthy debate, but alas some wearied of the challenge to OP doctrine and requested that I cease. Since I know there is a variety of opinion here and freedom of ideas is allowed I wanted to continue the debate here. I offered that some would come over here to keep the conversation going.

Simply put, if a man was dying, with moments to live and he repented of his sins, I believe his sins would be forgiven and he would be cleansed from all unrighteousness. If Jesus can't save him in those circumstances, He's not much of a savior.

If the person really put his faith in Jesus and repented then I don't doubt he'd be forgiven.

But does fear of dying make someone suddenly remorseful? I don't know, only God knows if that person really repented and placed their faith in God, not us

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Spoken like a true Westernized Christian. Remember... in the East hyperbole was a vehicle of emphasis...not didactic teaching of dogma.

So are you saying that Jesus was exaggerating when He spoke the truth He received from the Father to Nicodemus?

What Jesus taught His apostles for three and a half years came to fruition on the day of Pentecost when 120 followers of Jesus received the promised Holy Spirit and then 3000 other souls were added to them that day.

Wasn't Peter and the rest of the disciples being dogmatic when they obeyed the commands and teachings of Jesus Christ?

[TyronePalmer]

Originally Posted by Aquila

They'd step right over a man bleeding to death on the highway as he pleaded for prayer and for God to forgive him of sins. And then they claim they don't see any provision for the sick and infirm in Scripture. Hello... they don't believe in anointing the sick and infirm, praying for healing and the forgiveness of sins? Oh, but then they say it applies only to the church. So, if a saint's dying and unsaved spouse or child requested prayer... they'd deny it??? You know they don't.

Their position is just full of illogical inconsistencies. I chalk it up to this... God provided the anointing of oil and the prayer of faith for any sick and infirm person among us... including unsaved family and friends. And the benefits of this sacrement are:

-Possible healing.
-Being raised up.
-The Forgiveness of sins.

Let's review:

James 5:14-15 (ESV)
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Who is They? And who's position are you referring to?

Jesus said love your neighbor as yourself, and that's exactly what I would do if I came upon a man bleeding to death on the highway.

James 5:13-16 NKJV

"Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

Clearly James is talking about brothers and sisters in Christ, not a stranger bleeding to death on a highway. Jesus addressed what we should do about a stranger on the road in the parable of the good Samaritan.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TyronePalmer

So are you saying that Jesus was exaggerating when He spoke the truth He received from the Father to Nicodemus?

What Jesus taught His apostles for three and a half years came to fruition on the day of Pentecost when 120 followers of Jesus received the promised Holy Spirit and then 3000 other souls were added to them that day.

Wasn't Peter and the rest of the disciples being dogmatic when they obeyed the commands and teachings of Jesus Christ?

Do you believe Jesus was lying when He delegated the authority to administer the remission of sins (John 20:23)?

Even the Law of Moses allowed an exception for a man who couldn't afford a lamb.

Would you pray for the dying if asked?