Would I Kill A Person?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Why though? Because of some moral obligation not to fight? Or because of some moral obligation not to fight the kind of wars Rome was waging?

The writings I have read implied a repulsion to the spilling of human blood - period. They did not seem to qualify their stance by the current wickedness in Rome.

[Hoovie]

I would like to further explore the position of those who endorse killing - except in the case of resisting persecution for "His Name's sake".

What advise would you give Christians in China, Pakistan and Iran concerning serving in the Military?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jay

I disagree with you, Aquila. It is one thing to try to kill me for my faith, and depending on the situation (the legitimate government was performing the persecution), I would probably submit without struggle. However, if it illigitimate violence against me for any reason, I do view that it is incumbant upon me to defend myself, my family and friends, and my property. The Bible says that any man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infedel. I believe that also applies to the security of the family as well as monetary and emotional provision. If that regretably includes taking a life, then so be it.

Jay, I disagree with you. Persecution from a legitimate government or violence perpetrated by a private criminal doesn't absolve one of the responsibility of obedience to Christ's commands. If you die to be obedient to Christ, ligit government or not, you're a martyr.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Why though? Because of some moral obligation not to fight? Or because of some moral obligation not to fight the kind of wars Rome was waging?

How does any soldier know their nations true agendas? Israel was a theocracy. The nations agenda was God's agenda. What if a Christian is German? Is it wise to serve in the German army as it is the US Army? What if hostilities arise between Germany and the US? Do these two Christian soldiers do well to kill each other?

As for the Law allowing lethal force in self defence...it was as much a social cade as any nations body of laws. Self defence isn't a crime, and shouldn't be. However Jesus calls us to a morality higher than the Law.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by CC1

Aquila,

I think it is naive to think that you might not ever be placed in this situation based on being a christian. There are plenty of rightous people who have had terrible things done to them by evil persons.

Your take on things reminds me of the old story told a lot of different ways about the man in the flood who doesn't leave when he has a chance before the water reaches his house because he says the Lord will take care of him. Then he doesn't leave when a neighbor comes by with in a boat, telling the neighbor that the Lord will save him. Eventually he ends up on the roof of his house as the water rose and when the National Guard rescue helicopter tried to get him he once again declined saying that God would take care of him. As the water topped the roof he was lost in the flood. The next thing he knew he was in heaven and there was the Lord. In a stunned tone of voice he told the Lord "I thought you spoke to me and said you would save me from the flood and now I am dead!". The Lord replied, "I sent a boat and a helicopter, what more did you want????".

If we take the stance that God is an interventionist that doesn't allow terrible things to happen to Christians then we are ignoring the terrible car wrecks that take beloved moms and dads from young children who desperately need them or young children from loving parents. Violent crime is something that can happen to anyone regardless of their spiritual condition.

Your logic could be used to not wear a seat belt, not stop at stop lights, etc if the Lord is just going to take care of us and it doesn't matter what we do.

As I stated earlier God clearly set forth his moral law in the Old Testament. That did not change from the OT to NT and it is clear God makes a distinction between just killing and murder or then God violated his own commandments by what he had the Children of Israel to many times.

Is one naive to trust God in all things, including suffering, tragedy, and even death? Or would one only think it is naive if they didn't?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Is one naive to trust God in all things, including suffering, tragedy, and even death? Or would one only think it is naive if they didn't?

Nope. But even Jesus' refused to tempt God by jumping off a high place.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

How does any soldier know their nations true agendas? Israel was a theocracy. The nations agenda was God's agenda. What if a Christian is German? Is it wise to serve in the German army as it is the US Army? What if hostilities arise between Germany and the US? Do these two Christian soldiers do well to kill each other?

As for the Law allowing lethal force in self defence...it was as much a social cade as any nations body of laws. Self defence isn't a crime, and shouldn't be. However Jesus calls us to a morality higher than the Law.

I asked for history not a philosophy lesson

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jay, I disagree with you. Persecution from a legitimate government or violence perpetrated by a private criminal doesn't absolve one of the responsibility of obedience to Christ's commands. If you die to be obedient to Christ, ligit government or not, you're a martyr.

But to him you wouldn't be a martyr because he doesn't view what you are saying as one of Christ's command... But if you are right then I think we can all agree that you would be.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Nope. But even Jesus' refused to tempt God by jumping off a high place.

No one is talking about jumping from a building or refusing to take a boat to safety. We're talking about being obedient in the face of suffering, tragedy, violence, and even death.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jay, I disagree with you. Persecution from a legitimate government or violence perpetrated by a private criminal doesn't absolve one of the responsibility of obedience to Christ's commands. If you die to be obedient to Christ, ligit government or not, you're a martyr.

When Jesus addressed the issue of the Commandments, He quoted that portion as, "Thou shalt not murder." When you look up the word in the Old Testament, that is the only item that God forbade when it came to killing. Self defense was a legitimate killing. Further, nowhere in Scripture is killing forbidden except in the case of murder. The death penalty handed down to Noah and Moses was never revoked. The duty to protect one's family, friends, neighbors, and their property was laid out in detail in the Law. Jesus never said that it was to be otherwise. There are some portions of that Law that did not cease because Jesus died on the cross. The laws of atonement and sacrifice were abolished, and everything else was strengthened or else left alone.

Further, I trust God that I will make an excellent acquittal of myself when I am attempting to protect those that I love and care for. And I pray that I will not need to use that force for He is going to resolved the situation. As I heard taught, "The time to trust is before you have the emergency, not when you are in the middle of it."


However, as a friend of mine will say, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I know that nothing I have said will change your mind, but I endeavor to refute you so that someone else might take hope in their own self defense.