Are Infants Really Born Sinless?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

does this mean that the marriage of unbelievers is illegitimate and that the children of unbelievers are bastards? how does this affect their salvation status?

No, it means that being a believer married to an unbeliever does not null the marriage

[SRM]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

He doesn't say "All are born with sin"...Paul sad "All HAVE sinned"

So what is sin? Sin is the breaking of God's laws. What Law of God does an infant break? None...yet. But as they grow older they will sin

Mat 19:13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people,
Mat 19:14 but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."

Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

You also err in saying "in order for Jesus to die he had to become sin"..the bible does not say that.

He became a sin offering for us. He was our sacrificial lamb on whom all the sins of the world were put on. He did no sin. He was not a sinner. You quoted the right verse but it does not say "in order to die".

A child IS born sinless until they commit SIN. But they are not except because death came by one man on to ALL men.

That is where the sin NATURE comes in. Children, not having sinned yet, WILL sin because they have Adam's fallen sin nature. The only one able to resist the fallen sin nature and succumbed to sinning was Jesus

Death passed to ALL men..this would include infants IMHO

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by SRM

Death passed to ALL men..this would include infants IMHO

he isnt denying that. the infants we are discussing is the ones that have died. But death passed on through them because of adam. the baby itself hasnt committed any sin just because it was born

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The tense is aorist and gives a historic picture. All have sinned. However we know that Jesus did NOT sin. Right?

And as has been said babies, being part of the human race, will eventually commit sin

But the question was already asked, what sins do babies commit? Lying? Adultery? Rob banks?

Praxeas,

No, Jesus never sinned, 1 Peter 2:22, "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

You asked what sins do infants commit? I've read all your post, so please take mine carefully into consideration.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned


Notice, the scripture reads death entered the world through sin. Due to sin, death came to all men because of sin.

When we're born, we begin our journey to what ultimately will lead to death. While some die young and others at an elderly age, the death of a human being is due to the effect of sin.

Remember, "sin entered the world through one man" (through Adam's disobedience sin entered the world), and death through sin (because of sin, death entered the world), "and in this way death came to all men" (we inherited Adam's sin because we all will die).

After Adam's transgression, he died spiritually, and also began dying physically. Why do infants or adults die? Because we're born with sin that we inherited from Adam. How do we know that? Because sin brings death. A sinless body wouldn't die. Death is the effect of sin indwelling within our carnal bodies.

In the likeness of Adam's fallen nature, we inherited his sin because we're born spiritually dead (estranged from God) and we begin physically dying at birth.


It is impossible to be born sinless. We just can't convert from sinless at birth to becoming a sinner.

In regards to Psalm 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

David, you, I, and the entire humanity have the Adamic sin nature at birth. Sin isn't something we learn to commit. Remember, Ephesians 2:3 talks about how we were by nature children of wrath? Before our conversion, by nature we were sinners.


Jesus said in Matt 15:18, But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man unclean.

We're sinners because we have the nature of sin (Adam's sin) already within us all. Our uncleanness/sin comes from within the heart, it's within us at birth, it isn't something that we learn later in life.

Sin is already rooted in our heart at birth. Remember, we were the children of wrath by nature? Nature comes automatically, it isn't learned.

Jeremiah 17:9 states,
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked......"

Yes, at birth we have a "deceitful, wicked sin infested heart." It's for that reason that God desires to give us a new heart, Ezekiel 36:26, "I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh....."

Job 25:4 reads, "..... How can one born of woman be pure?"

Did Jesus inherit the Adamic sinful nature? No.

Roman 8:3
For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,


Notice, Jesus came in the likeness of "sinful flesh." Jesus didn't receive the Adamic sinful nature, which comes naturally in all of humanity (Ephesians 2:3). Adam's sin is transfered through human father-ship. That's why Jesus was sinless, He received his physical nature from Mary, not man.

Death entered through sin. The fact the infants die is evidence that sin is present in their life.


So no, these babies didn't commit adultery or rob banks as you suggested, they inherited the Adamic sin.

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Man dies because of one man's sin, Adam, not because of our own.

Therefore your argument about Jesus needing to sin in order to die is false

I never said Jesus sinned. I said he bore our sins.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Pr
So no, these babies didn't commit adultery or rob banks as you suggested, they inherited the Adamic sin.

we need to correct this cause your wording is off.

The babies do not inherit adamic sin. No body on this earth except for adam and eve ate that fruit. That was their sin. But we all have to pay for it cause death came into the world because of it.

the babies inherited adamic nature. and its the ability to commit sin. Its not saying the baby has already commited sin.

Every person is Judged on their sins committed. The babies have no sin, but they do have a adamic nature, meaning eventually when they grow they will commit sin

1 john 3:4

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

Babies are not born already breaking the law. I dont care how you want to digest it. Sin comes about by breaking the law.

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

But children don't understand good from evil YET

Deu 1:39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it..

In fact as far as the little children were concerned, they did believe. And the text indicates they were without sin...that it would take an adult to CAUSE them to sin
Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,
Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

The text reads Jesus called a Child unto him in Matt 18. He gave no indication that this child was sinless!

Matt 18:6
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, ........

Just wasn't referring to whomever makes the child in his presence to sin is in danger.

Serious? He was referring to whomever makes his followers stumble, not that specific child.

I also will look into Deuteronomy 1:39 which you posted above.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

and how is it the angels of little ones always behold the face of God but not the angels of men?

Mat 18:10 Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I say to you that in Heaven their angels always behold the face of My Father in Heaven.

I'm at a loss for words. This scripture isn't insinuating that only children have angels, as you suppose above.

Jesus is referring to those who believe in Christ. Mark 18:10 isn't referring to children, it's referring to His disciples comparable to children in humility. He said the angels of His disciples behold his face. I apologize, but this deserves a

Matt 18:10
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Which little ones?

Matt 18:6
"If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble

Jesus was referring to his followers at "little ones", not actual children.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by SRM

Death passed to ALL men..this would include infants IMHO

I don't think I denied death passed to all men including infants

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Praxeas,

No, Jesus never sinned, 1 Peter 2:22, "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

You asked what sins do infants commit? I've read all your post, so please take mine carefully into consideration.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned


Notice, the scripture reads death entered the world through sin. Due to sin, death came to all men because of sin.

When we're born, we begin our journey to what ultimately will lead to death. While some die young and others at an elderly age, the death of a human being is due to the effect of sin.

No again death is due to the effect of Adam's sin, not yours. You will die because of Adam's sin

BTW what sin do infants commit? Still didn't answer

Remember, "sin entered the world through one man" (through Adam's disobedience sin entered the world), and death through sin (because of sin, death entered the world), "and in this way death came to all men" (we inherited Adam's sin because we all will die).

No we did not inherit Adam's sin. We inherited the consequences of Adam's sin.

Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come

After Adam's transgression, he died spiritually, and also began dying physically. Why do infants or adults die? Because we're born with sin that we inherited from Adam. How do we know that? Because sin brings death. A sinless body wouldn't die. Death is the effect of sin indwelling within our carnal bodies.

No we die because of Adam's sin. Adam sinned and because of that all human's will die. Not because of our own sins. The bible does not say we inherit Adam's sin. Man's nature was changed when Adam sinned

In the likeness of Adam's fallen nature, we inherited his sin because we're born spiritually dead (estranged from God) and we begin physically dying at birth.

No, we inherit the nature not the sin

It is impossible to be born sinless. We just can't convert from sinless at birth to becoming a sinner.

a sinner is someone that commits sins. What sin do infants commit

Jesus said in Matt 15:18, But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man unclean.

We're sinners because we have the nature of sin (Adam's sin) already within us all. Our uncleanness/sin comes from within the heart, it's within us at birth, it isn't something that we learn later in life.

No we are sinners because we sin. We SIN because we have a fallen nature

Sin is already rooted in our heart at birth. Remember, we were the children of wrath by nature? Nature comes automatically, it isn't learned.

No the propensity to commit sin is already rooted in our nature

Jeremiah 17:9 states,
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked......"

Yes, at birth we have a "deceitful, wicked sin infested heart." It's for that reason that God desires to give us a new heart, Ezekiel 36:26, "I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh....."

Let me repeat what God says about children

Deu 1:39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

When Adam and Eve sinned they then had the knowledge of good and evil. Your little ones don't yet have that knowledge. They are innocent

Job 25:4 reads, "..... How can one born of woman be pure?"

I already addressed this verse and the other one

Death entered through sin. The fact the infants die is evidence that sin is present in their life.

Death entered through Adam's sin not the infant's sin

So no, these babies didn't commit adultery or rob banks as you suggested, they inherited the Adamic sin.

The bible does not say they inherited Adam's sin. They inherited the consequences of Adam's sin

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

I'm at a loss for words. This scripture isn't insinuating that only children have angels, as you suppose above.

I didn't say it did. It does insinuate their angels always see the fact of God. That is what I said

Jesus is referring to those who believe in Christ. Mark 18:10 isn't referring to children, it's referring to His disciples comparable to children in humility. He said the angels of His disciples behold his face. I apologize, but this deserves a

Im sorry but THIS deserves a

Try reading it again...first of all Mark only goes up to chapter 16...so where you get Mark 18 is anyone's guess

Second of all you broke one of the first rules of interpretation, ignoring the context or taking a verse out of context.

If you read the context you'd see how Jesus was speaking NOT of hsi disciples but of children

Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them
Mat 18:3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,
Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mat 18:7 "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!
Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Mat 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Matt 18:10
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Which little ones?

Matt 18:6
"If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble

Jesus was referring to his followers at "little ones", not actual children

No he was referring to children.. He picked a child up and kept referring to the child..see above in red