Official Stance of UPC?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by acerrak

while i agree we should all be baptized. I do not for see water baptism being the sign of the covenant for the new testament. That is The holy Spirit.
The Promise of God. Every one who is a child of God will have the spirit of God.

and you shall recieve the promise. So if he was using this to explain the covenant I definatly would have went more to explain the Spirtual side than water baptism.

But again i still wasnt disprooved by any commentary that the word baptism equates to being with water, when it has many references with in the context of scriptures.

I thought everyone could easily see that baptism in 1 Cor 10 described as being into Moses is correspondent to Christian water baptism. The entire context shows they corresponded in experience to what we do. What else is Paul referring to as the counterpart for Christian water baptism in mentioning Israel's baptism? The commentary just affirms the plainness and obviousness of it all.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I thought everyone could easily see that baptism in 1 Cor 10 described as being into Moses is correspondent to Christian water baptism. The entire context shows they corresponded in experience to what we do. What else is Paul referring to as the counterpart for Christian water baptism in mentioning Israel's baptism? The commentary just affirms the plainness and obviousness of it all.

well im happy you see it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by acerrak

well im happy you see it.

The purpose in showing the comments from those whom I quoted is to show that even those who do not believe baptismal is essential to salvation plainly see 1 Cor 10 is referring to water baptism in the church.

Here's more:

BW JOHNSON

Were all baptized unto Moses. "The two phrases, 'Were under the cloud,' and 'Passed through the sea,' seem to prefigure the double process of submersion and emersion in baptism."--Canon Cook. Observe that the Israelites, by this event, left Egypt, escaped from Pharaoh, and entered upon their march, with Moses as their leader, even as Christians leave the Egypt of sin behind, and start upon the Christian life, when they are "baptized into Christ." One of the church Fathers, Theodoret, says: "The sea of transition represents the laver of regeneration, Moses foreshadows Christ, Israel the baptized disciples, the pursuing Egyptians are the sins left behind, and Pharaoh is a type of the devil."

JFB

1Co 10:2
And — “And so” [Bengel].
baptized unto Moses — the servant of God and representative of the Old Testament covenant of the law: as Jesus, the Son of God, is of the Gospel covenant (Joh_1:17; Heb_3:5, Heb_3:6). The people were led to believe in Moses as God’s servant by the miracle of the cloud protecting them, and by their being conducted under him safely through the Red Sea; therefore they are said to be “baptized unto” him (Exo_14:31). “Baptized” is here equivalent to “initiated”: it is used in accommodation to Paul’s argument to the Corinthians; they, it is true, have been “baptized,” but so also virtually were the Israelites of old; if the virtual baptism of the latter availed not to save them from the doom of lust, neither will the actual baptism of the former save them. There is a resemblance between the symbols also: for the cloud and sea consist of water, and as these took the Israelites out of sight, and then restored them again to view, so the water does to the baptized [Bengel]. Olshausen understands “the cloud” and “the sea” as symbolizing the Spirit and water respectively (Joh_3:5; Act_10:44-47). Christ is the pillar cloud that screens us from the heat of God’s wrath. Christ as “the light of the world” is our “pillar of fire” to guide us in the darkness of the world. As the rock when smitten sent forth the waters, so Christ, having been once for all smitten, sends forth the waters of the Spirit. As the manna bruised in mills fed Israel, so Christ, when “it pleased the Lord to bruise Him,” has become our spiritual food. A strong proof of inspiration is given in this fact, that the historical parts of Scripture, without the consciousness even of the authors, are covert prophecies of the future.

HENRY

They were miraculously conducted through the Red Sea, where the pursuing Egyptians were drowned: it was a lane to them, but a grave to these: a proper type of our redemption by Christ, who saves us by conquering and destroying his enemies and ours. They were very dear to God, and much in his favour, when he would work such miracles for their deliverance, and take them so immediately under his guidance and protection. 2. They had sacraments like ours. (1.) They were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud, and in the sea (1Co_10:2), or into Moses, that is, brought under obligation to Moses's law and covenant, as we are by baptism under the Christian law and covenant. It was to them a typical baptism.

Notice the thought of it being a grave to the Egyptians, as though the soldiers were our sins. As Moses said they would never again see the Egyptians any more, our sins are removed from our lives never to be remembered against us again.

Many see it. It is a minority who do not.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The purpose in showing the comments from those whom I quoted is to show that even those who do not believe baptismal is essential to salvation plainly see 1 Cor 10 is referring to water baptism in the church.

Here's more:

BW JOHNSON

Were all baptized unto Moses. "The two phrases, 'Were under the cloud,' and 'Passed through the sea,' seem to prefigure the double process of submersion and emersion in baptism."--Canon Cook. Observe that the Israelites, by this event, left Egypt, escaped from Pharaoh, and entered upon their march, with Moses as their leader, even as Christians leave the Egypt of sin behind, and start upon the Christian life, when they are "baptized into Christ." One of the church Fathers, Theodoret, says: "The sea of transition represents the laver of regeneration, Moses foreshadows Christ, Israel the baptized disciples, the pursuing Egyptians are the sins left behind, and Pharaoh is a type of the devil."

JFB

1Co 10:2
And — “And so” [Bengel].
baptized unto Moses — the servant of God and representative of the Old Testament covenant of the law: as Jesus, the Son of God, is of the Gospel covenant (Joh_1:17; Heb_3:5, Heb_3:6). The people were led to believe in Moses as God’s servant by the miracle of the cloud protecting them, and by their being conducted under him safely through the Red Sea; therefore they are said to be “baptized unto” him (Exo_14:31). “Baptized” is here equivalent to “initiated”: it is used in accommodation to Paul’s argument to the Corinthians; they, it is true, have been “baptized,” but so also virtually were the Israelites of old; if the virtual baptism of the latter availed not to save them from the doom of lust, neither will the actual baptism of the former save them. There is a resemblance between the symbols also: for the cloud and sea consist of water, and as these took the Israelites out of sight, and then restored them again to view, so the water does to the baptized [Bengel]. Olshausen understands “the cloud” and “the sea” as symbolizing the Spirit and water respectively (Joh_3:5; Act_10:44-47). Christ is the pillar cloud that screens us from the heat of God’s wrath. Christ as “the light of the world” is our “pillar of fire” to guide us in the darkness of the world. As the rock when smitten sent forth the waters, so Christ, having been once for all smitten, sends forth the waters of the Spirit. As the manna bruised in mills fed Israel, so Christ, when “it pleased the Lord to bruise Him,” has become our spiritual food. A strong proof of inspiration is given in this fact, that the historical parts of Scripture, without the consciousness even of the authors, are covert prophecies of the future.

HENRY

They were miraculously conducted through the Red Sea, where the pursuing Egyptians were drowned: it was a lane to them, but a grave to these: a proper type of our redemption by Christ, who saves us by conquering and destroying his enemies and ours. They were very dear to God, and much in his favour, when he would work such miracles for their deliverance, and take them so immediately under his guidance and protection. 2. They had sacraments like ours. (1.) They were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud, and in the sea (1Co_10:2), or into Moses, that is, brought under obligation to Moses's law and covenant, as we are by baptism under the Christian law and covenant. It was to them a typical baptism.

Notice the thought of it being a grave to the Egyptians, as though the soldiers were our sins. As Moses said they would never again see the Egyptians any more, our sins are removed from our lives never to be remembered against us again.

Many see it. It is a minority who do not.

yea its like walking around a upci and them asking you when did you recieve the revelation...... I dont got it yet maybe more study is required. But not something im going to jump into

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by acerrak

yea its like walking around a upci and them asking you when did you recieve the revelation...... I dont got it yet maybe more study is required. But not something im going to jump into

Whenever you think to check it out some more... think of this:

Genesis 1:1-8 KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (3) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (4) And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. (5) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Exodus 14:19-20 KJV And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: (20) And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.


Genesis 1: (6) And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. (7) And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. (8) And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Exodus 14:21 KJV And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

The pattern is identical in Genesis 1 and Exodus. The Egyptians are like our sins. They tormented us and held us in bondage. Repentance is when the WORD is given to us and we seek forgiveness and God separates sins from our lives, and light and darkness are divided. Then the WATERS ARE DIVIDED in baptism. Those sins separated from us are washed away (Acts 22:16) as the soldiers were washed away. And Moses said Israel would see them no more!

Even the wording between Genesis 1 and Exodus 14 are identical!

It only takes noticing terms used in the bible. Not so much "revelation", although noticing these things is revelatory.

BTW, I say this and I am not UPC.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

BTW, I say this and I am not UPC.

I know I like the canadaian ap church that was linked in another thread. i stated we needed more of those types of church here in america

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It only takes noticing terms used in the bible. Not so much "revelation", although noticing these things is revelatory.

BTW, I say this and I am not UPC.

Coming from the mouth of Rev David K. Bernard: "What we mean by "Revelation" is not in the true sense of Revelation (as of prophets and such) but that of Illumination. That which was there, made plain to us. A mystery reviled."

I do like your points on the whole baptism thought. There are so many patterns, types, and shadow thoughout the Bible that explain why the "Death, Burial and Resurrection" is the way to salvation.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by NorCal

I think you guys need to take a look at your doctrine again. Being born of Water and of Spirit, is not something new.

1 Corinthians 10:1 - Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Waters AND Spirit baptism. Christ the Living Bread and Living Water. The Rock.

So when Christ said, "You must be born of Water and of Spirit" he meant what he said. There was no supposition there. It was a Fact.

God does not change! His plan has not changed, only his method of implementation! For He became our sacrifice, and now dwells within us.

It's amazing how many people think that the "New Testament" is something actually "New". Like some kind of new doctrine is brought forth.
That is a false assumption, for all Christ did was preach the Old Testament. The "New" is only that he fulfilled the prophesies.

To believe John 3:5 is referring to Water Baptism is heresy. I used to staunchly teach this until someone pointed out the blatant fact, that in John 3:8 Jesus said nothing about the Water.

Jesus plainly pointed out in the illustration that there was a Flesh birth (Water), and a Spirit birth (Spirit). Tradition and Religion will keep old school Apostolics from seeing this because of being indoctrinated with an idea that reflects Eternal consequences. This happens in all Faiths, and fear keeps people from accepting the Truth.

Open your heart and read it for what it is; it's beyond clear.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

To believe John 3:5 is referring to Water Baptism is heresy. ...

To believe John 3;5 is referring to water baptism is a Roman Catholic doctrine that has been carried over into some Protestant and some Oneness Pentecostal teaching.

I have a Bible called
The Holy Bible
Douay Version

which has the following information

translated from the Latin Vulgate
(Douay, A.D. 1609; Rheims, A.D. 1582)

with a preface by
H.E. The Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster

This Edition contains notes compiled by Bishop Challoner (1691-1781)

Imprimatur
Bernardus Cardinalis Griffin
Archiepiscopus Westmononasteriensis

London Catholic Truth Society

On page 122 of the NT the following note is given for John 3:5
"By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism..."

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Sam

To believe John 3;5 is referring to water baptism is a Roman Catholic doctrine that has been carried over into some Protestant and some Oneness Pentecostal teaching.

I have a Bible called
The Holy Bible
Douay Version

which has the following information

translated from the Latin Vulgate
(Douay, A.D. 1609; Rheims, A.D. 1582)

with a preface by
H.E. The Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster

This Edition contains notes compiled by Bishop Challoner (1691-1781)

Imprimatur
Bernardus Cardinalis Griffin
Archiepiscopus Westmononasteriensis

London Catholic Truth Society

On page 122 of the NT the following note is given for John 3:5
"By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism..."

Very interesting. This is probably one reason why they baptize infants.