If Salvation is a absolute free gift.. - Page 7

Socialite · #61 03-23-2011, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Socialite, Luke2447 and onefaith2, much of all you each have said is the same thing only coming from different perspectives and terms which caused you to think the other said something else, except socialite's inclination to OSAS.

I disagree, Mike.

I honestly do not believe this is only a semantic difference of perspective.

Unless we understand, believe and accept that the Cross is our salvation, and that my actions are not FOR my salvation, but BECAUSE OF my salvation, then we've not really understood the Good News believed and preached by the Apostles. Anything short of that is a skewed picture of the Gospel IMO.

mfblume · #62 03-23-2011, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

I disagree, Mike.

I honestly do not believe this is only a semantic difference of perspective.

Unless we understand, believe and accept that the Cross is our salvation, and that my actions are not FOR my salvation, but BECAUSE OF my salvation, then we've not really understood the Good News believed and preached by the Apostles. Anything short of that is a skewed picture of the Gospel IMO.

I should likely adjust my statement, since I agree. Luke2447 is seemingly veering off into salvation by works somewhat.

Michael The Disciple · #63 03-23-2011, 08:37 PM

There are things we must DO for final salvation. It is God working in us both to will and DO them. Nonetheless WE must DO them.

mfblume · #64 03-23-2011, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

There are things we must DO for final salvation. It is God working in us both to will and DO them. Nonetheless WE must DO them.

Amen. But it is God cooperating and empowering us to do them. It is God within us that worketh...

LUKE2447 · #65 03-24-2011, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Can you rephrase your question? Not following...

SO your action in response to his Spirit and commandment does not have ANY consideration of your standing in relationship to him?

Basically will you be judged according to your response and doing his will when it comes to receiving eternal life in the end. Also is what you do accoding to his will change your standing or his consideration of you while still in this world as righteous?

LUKE2447 · #66 03-24-2011, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I should likely adjust my statement, since I agree. Luke2447 is seemingly veering off into salvation by works somewhat.

No Mike I am not jumping off into salvation by works. Salvation is not by works in the flesh. Paul talks about "this faith" that now has come is about a medium of reality in which the law upon the heart(vs through the flesh) to do upon which the Spiit bears witness of righteousness or lawlessness to him. Which is sanctificatin and justification from the beginning and to the end. We are judged righteous by relationship unto law not simply by doing lawful acts. In walking as he walks in the light we have fellowship with one another and with the blood of JEsus CHrist which cleanses us from sin. Thus GOD does justice to those who follow him and obey him and are cleansed from sin. TO have fellowship is to be called friend. This relates directly to John 15:4-15 with 1 John 1:7

They BOTH are works but the argument is of SOURCE. Paul make the distinction by using "faith" which is a relational understanding TO DO vs a isolate aspect of works in which lawful doing is isolated from the law giver.

Rigteousness is always seen in repentance or relying on God and casting away the flesh to do his will. To realize the work of Christ in our life is to respond to him and his offering which is provisional grace. God does not just throw money into our account and wipe away the debt without your realization. To say we don't respond in doing is to negate the call or have a call at all. I know you are not saying that but there is always a element of righeousness we do for GOD to respond to us with his blessings. God will not give his provision to prideful people but people that humble themselves. That is a act of righteousness and positioning yourself before him. Is that MY work tha saves? No! IT is God's work that saves my actions are the passive elements needed for God to give what he wants to give.

In the end it is a gift (which I would say is more a offering) BUT it has God's consideration of your response which makes it conditional and not a absolute free gift with no strings attached to receiving it. There is a price to receiving God's consideraion of righteousness.

onefaith2 · #67 03-24-2011, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

What you call choice, I call belief.

Just like I didn't choose to be saved, I believed to be saved.

I don't choose to have good fruit, I believe God's gift on the cross and BEAR good fruit.

belief is a choice Socialite

onefaith2 · #68 03-24-2011, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

I disagree, Mike.

I honestly do not believe this is only a semantic difference of perspective.

Unless we understand, believe and accept that the Cross is our salvation, and that my actions are not FOR my salvation, but BECAUSE OF my salvation, then we've not really understood the Good News believed and preached by the Apostles. Anything short of that is a skewed picture of the Gospel IMO.

Your salvation is totally contiguent upon your response to the gospel. Again socialite, belief, baptism, walking after the Spirit are all choices each one of us has to make. These are not works. We don't forgive ourselves when we believe, Jesus does. We don't put ourselves into Christ's death at baptism, Jesus does.

But these are contingent upon our response. When we respond and hear Christ's voice, life is imparted to us.

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24

It is always a choice

LUKE2447 · #69 03-24-2011, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Your salvation is totally contiguent upon your response to the gospel. Again socialite, belief, baptism, walking after the Spirit are all choices each one of us has to make. These are not works. We don't forgive ourselves when we believe, Jesus does. We don't put ourselves into Christ's death at baptism, Jesus does.

But these are contingent upon our response. When we respond and hear Christ's voice, life is imparted to us.

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24

It is always a choice

works is a point of source IMO not that we don't do anything. Walking by faith is a work to do as it has context but it is not of our own understanding or way but his. Thus it is not my glory of righteousness but I am robing myself of the deeds of the saints which are is works unto us and prepared before hand. Feed the poor help the sick etc.... Do they save me "in themselves?" no but I cannot have God's consideration of righteous unless I follow him and his Word. I cannot be cleansed according to his justice/righteousness toward me unless I follow him.

John 3:36 (English Standard Version)
36(A) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life;(B) whoever does not obey the Son shall not(C) see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

onefaith2 · #70 03-24-2011, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

works is a point of source IMO not that we don't do anything. Walking by faith is a work to do as it has context but it is not of our own understanding or way but his. Thus it is not my glory of righteousness but I am robing myself of the deeds of the saints which are is works unto us and prepared before hand. Feed the poor help the sick etc.... Do they save me "in themselves?" no but I cannot have God's consideration of righteous unless I follow him and his Word. I cannot be cleansed according to his justice/righteousness toward me unless I follow him.

John 3:36 (English Standard Version)
36(A) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life;(B) whoever does not obey the Son shall not(C) see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

The description of works in the Bible usually deals with trusting a religion system like the law. James is talking more about action, then works of the law. Feeding the poor, Rahab hiding the spies; these weren't works of the law, they were actions based on faith.

That is why I don't call baptism a work. Its not we who give ourself righteousness in that act. If so we could get into a tub of water and call on the name of Jesus anytime we felt like it. Baptism would then be performed. It can never be a work of our own, but a response to his work.

See the difference? Thats what I am stressing to Socialite because he thinks what we are saying teaches salvation by works or is similar to moralism. That is just simply not so.

Question for Socialite?

You said something about Evangelicals teaching typical moralism. If you don't allign yourself with Evangelicals and don't agree with apostolic churches teaching of grace, faith, and works; what church teaches what you are saying about death and life?