Has Hell Disappeared? - Page 7

Mr. Smith · #61 09-20-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximilian

Eugene Patteron's exegesis of this:
22-23Go easy on those who hesitate in the faith. Go after those who take the wrong way. Be tender with sinners, but not soft on sin. The sin itself stinks to high heaven.

How can we be hard on sin and tender on sinners? What does this look like?

Give me a little bit and I'll give you Warren Weirsbe's exegesis of it. Basically, I already did, but I'll quote it. Gotta eat first. But nowhere in Jude is there a discussion of reaching the lost. It all centers around one subject. To suddenly, out of nowhere and without an explanation, bring evangelism strategies into the picture, is irresponsible.

geekette · #62 09-20-2010, 07:34 PM

I don't see any purpose in the doctrine of hell as it's currently preached. On the one hand, it's there for preachers to scare the sinners into repentance but on the other hand it makes the saints privately feel oh so smug about how they're not going to roast for all eternity. (At least today's preachers don't talk, as Tertullian and Thomas Aquinas did in their writings, about how much pleasure they were going to get out of the sufferings of the damned.)

Hell doesn't serve any redemptive purpose as it's popularly constructed. It's pretty much a place of vengeance in popular thought. If you don't believe and act the right way, well, then God is going to get you. I went through that for a long time and I'd had quite enough.

I decided some time ago that I would rather go to hell myself than worship a god who had a hell waiting for sinners, unbelievers, people who didn't believe the right way, people who hadn't properly confessed their sins, people who missed the Rapture, women who cut their hair, men who didn't cut their hair, people who believed in the Trinity etc., etc., etc. Just not my thang, you see...

...here's my handbasket!

geekette · #63 09-20-2010, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximilian

Eugene Patteron's exegesis of this:
22-23Go easy on those who hesitate in the faith. Go after those who take the wrong way. Be tender with sinners, but not soft on sin. The sin itself stinks to high heaven.

How can we be hard on sin and tender on sinners? What does this look like?

Hate the sin, love the sinner? I mean, as one of those now out in the world people, I can tell you that this goes over real well with my compatriots. Which is to say, it doesn't go over well at all.

pelathais · #64 09-20-2010, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geekette

Hate the sin, love the sinner? I mean, as one of those now out in the world people, I can tell you that this goes over real well with my compatriots. Which is to say, it doesn't go over well at all.

I think it would depend upon how "sin" is defined. If you define it in the manner you spoke of in the previous post (women cutting hair, men not cutting enough, etc) then you will probably baffle most audiences. If you describe sin as injustice, predatory behavior and etc. you'll probably find a receptive audience wherever you go.

Of course some people who employ the "Hate the sin/Love the sinner" model end up being stuck with a "Hate the Holocaust/Love Hitler" sort of problem.

Mr. Smith · #65 09-20-2010, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximilian

Eugene Patteron's exegesis of this:
22-23Go easy on those who hesitate in the faith. Go after those who take the wrong way. Be tender with sinners, but not soft on sin. The sin itself stinks to high heaven.

How can we be hard on sin and tender on sinners? What does this look like?

Eugene Patterson, the Message Bible guy?

Ok, here's what Weirsbe has to say about this:

The phrase with fear means "with caution." In trying to help those who have erred, we must be careful not to be trapped ourselves! Many a would-be rescuer has been drowned himself. When an unstable believer has been captured by false doctrine, we must be be very careful as we try to help him, for Satan can use him to defile us. In trying to save him, we may be stained or burned ourselves.

Truthseeker · #66 09-20-2010, 08:05 PM

Preaching hell hasnt' worked???

pelathais · #67 09-20-2010, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Preaching hell hasnt' worked???

Not in the long run. If you're timing is right you might catch a wave and produce a short term "revival" with it, but in the long run you will find that you really haven't added anyone to congregation itself; and you'll then often have an uphill battle trying to reframe the perception of your church and ministry in the community.

Been there, done that. I'm left wondering why folks keep doing it over and over again when it really produces no net results.

Truthseeker · #68 09-20-2010, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

Not in the long run. If you're timing is right you might catch a wave and produce a short term "revival" with it, but in the long run you will find that you really haven't added anyone to congregation itself; and you'll then often have an uphill battle trying to reframe the perception of your church and ministry in the community.

Been there, done that. I'm left wondering why folks keep doing it over and over again when it really produces no net results.

Yeah, all the sin, lying, fakeness, no consecration in general church world tells me hell hasn't brought maturity. Thhe scripture "For the love of Christ constraineth us"
KJV

DAII · #69 09-20-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Smith

No, not at all. The entire book of Jude is given to addressing apostasy within The Church, and this includes verse 23. When dealing with those that are teaching falsely, approach them, deal with them, save them, with fear, or "With Caution". We should do this considering our own condition and not be damaged by those who have already "fallen away."

Verse 23 of Jude has nothing to do whatsoever with dealing with "The Lost."

Yep. Whether you take Blume's or the view you and I take on this passage ... it is clear that this cannot be used to endorse a view that Jude was espousing a "salvation through threats and fear of Hell" approach ...

It's irresponsible and a wanton violation of the Word to do so ....

The Harrelson quote of the verse in his blog is just plain fabricated.

Quote:

Jude. . . said it like this. . . . others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire.

DAII · #70 09-20-2010, 08:26 PM

Adam Clarke's commentary on this passage ... including his quoting of the Syriac and Wesley's notes:

Quote:

Verse 22. And of some have compassion, making a difference] The general meaning of this exhortation is supposed to be, "Ye are not to deal alike with all those who have been seduced by false teachers; ye are to make a difference between those who have been led away by weakness and imprudence, and those who, in the pride and arrogance of their hearts, and their unwillingness to submit to wholesome discipline, have separated themselves from the Church, and become its inveterate enemies." Instead of kai ouv men eleeite diakrinomenoi, and of some have compassion, making a difference, many MSS., versions, and fathers have kai ouv men elegcete diakrinomenouv, and some rebuke, after having judged them; or, rebuke those that differ; or, some that are wavering convince; or whatever else the reader pleases: for this and the following verse are all confusion, both in the MSS. and versions; and it is extremely difficult to know what was the original text. Our own is as likely as any.

Verse 23. And others save with fear] "Some of them snatch from the fire: but when they repent, have mercy upon them in fear." - Syriac. "And some of them rebuke for their sins; and on others have mercy when they are convicted; and others save from the fire and deliver them." - Erpen's Arabic.

Mr. Wesley's note has probably hit the sense. "Meantime watch over others as well as yourselves; and give them such help as their various needs require. For instance,

1. Some that are wavering in judgment, staggered by others' or by their own evil reasoning, endeavour more deeply to convince of the truth as it is in Jesus.
2. Some snatch with a swift and strong hand out of the fire of sin and temptation.
3. On others show compassion, in a milder and gentler way; though still with a jealous fear, lest you yourselves be infected with the disease you endeavour to cure. See therefore that, while ye love the sinners, ye retain the utmost abhorrence of their sins, and of any, the least degree of or approach to them." Having even the garment spotted by the flesh.] Fleeing from all appearance of evil. Dictum sumptum, ut apparet, a mulieribus sanguine menstruo pollutis, quarum vestes etiam pollutae censebantur: or there may be an allusion to a case of leprosy, for that infected the garments of the afflicted person, and these garments were capable of conveying the contagion to others.

Verse 24. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling] Who alone can preserve you from the contagion of sin, and preserve you from falling into any kind of error that might be prejudicial to the interests of your souls; and thus to present you faultless, or, as many others read, aspilouv, without spot, alluding to the spotted garment mentioned above.

Before the presence of his glory] Where nothing can stand that does not resemble himself, with exceeding great joy, in finding yourselves eternally out of the reach of the possibility of falling, and for having now arrived at an eternity of happiness.