For those that left the UPC...

[Mirth1981]

GodsDrummer: I don't understand how people can stay in their UPC churches for years after the Lord opens their eyes to this. It is not an easy thing to do. I hope I am able to be as patient and keep my attitude right in the meantime. Right now it seems like an impossible feat, but I will try to take it one day at a time.

AQuietPlace: That is very good advice. I think that will be a huge benefit of continuing to attend my UPC church. It will give my husband a chance to see that I'm not a reprobate, and that I still love God and want to please Him.

[Godsdrummer]

AQuitPlace has said it right, My mom does not see or understand why we left she thinks we just don't want to serve God because of standards. But my wife and I have determined to just show them Gods love. I know my parents are saved they love God and I don't care to change them, I know they ask prayer for us all the time and I tell them thats ok I take all the prayer they want to give.

We have ask God to give her peace that our souls are ok and that seems to be happening. I know you are in a hard place with your husband in the ministry. You are in the place I was years ago. I saw things but my wife did not, and thought I had lost all my standards. lol But I just kept talking, as the prophet said line upon line....here a little there a little... as I said truth will preaval.

God does things in his own time and sometimes we don't understand why he takes so long we want to make things happen right now. I used to do the same thing when I was preaching I had a pastors wife tell one time that if a women did not take off her pants (and start wearing dresses) and jewelery, makeup ect within six months or so they did not have the same Holy Ghost she had. When I realize how I was it helps me have more patiants with others.

Another testimony My eldest daughter got pregnant out of wedlock, when my wife and daughter told me, the first thought was this child would be the salvation of its parents. to make a long story short, it took 4 years but it was because of my grandson that both his father came to a relationship with God and my eldest daughter made a renewed her walk with God. It was two years later that I performed thier marriage.

There is a reason God revealed things to you first be patient pick your battles and remember God is still in UPC churches.

[StillStanding]

Be careful when "appeasing" the pastor and the current church congregation.

I like quote about appeasing by Winston Churchill:
“An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last”

[Falla39]

“An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile - hoping it will eat him last”

But there is an adversary!

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.

[SRM]

Originally Posted by Mirth1981

Today I was reading the book entitled "Why? A Study of Christian Standards" written by Kelsey Griffin, Dan Segraves, Ralph Reynolds, and Rick Wyser. It was published by Word Aflame, and endorsed by Nathaniel A Urshan. The book was put out in 1984.

In the section about women's hair, it addresses 1 Cor Ch 11 (of course), and the fact that Paul was writing concerning the Corinthian women wearing their veils in the church, which was the custom of that time. This, in fact, is what 1 Cor 11 is about...not whether or not women should or should not cut their hair. I know I'm preaching to the choir here...sorry.

Anyway...the part I found extremely interesting is this (apologize this is a bit lengthy, but please take the time to read it):

"Should Christian women today wear veils? Although women who wear veils today should not be condemned for the practice, neither the Scriptures nor present customs mandate the wearing of veils. There are several reasons why it is not necessary for Christian women of our society to wear a veil.
No veil was required in the beginning. One basic principle in biblical interpretation is that the first time a thing is mentioned in Scripture it will contain the basic truth which will be reflected in all subsequent passages. "

(going to skip a few sentences here...)

"Veiling was but a temporary custom. It has not been followed from ancient history, nor has it been widely practiced during the past many centuries. If a certain thing is a mark of immorality in a specific culture, a Christian woman should not do it. But that does not mean that other Christian women, at other places and times, must refrain from the practice if it has no imroper connotations in their respective societies. Culture bears much significance in the traditions and standards of a particular region."

Wow...does anybody else see what I see, especially pertaining to that last paragraph? That is straight from the horse's mouth.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Nice quote there..also I would like to add.."we do not read scripture as audience relevance today" that is..what did it mean TO THEM FIRST!..it is like there is scales covering our eyes and we seem to think when Paul sat down and wrote to the Corinth Church He still somehow had the church [even though it mentions and addressed a city hmmm] 2000 yrs later in mind..I am not saying scripture is not FOR us but I am saying I believe scripture was not written TO us...that is directly..

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by Mirth1981

Hi...I don't intend for this thread to be started as a debate. I would just like to hear stories from those that have left the UPC.

Specifically...What made you finally decide to leave? Was it difficult? Were you able to find a church that wasn't "easy believism" but yet one that didn't enforce extra-biblical principles where you could go and worship God in your own way? Do you have any regrets? Anything you wish you had done differently? How is your walk with God now? Do you still suffer from self condemnation and feel brainwashed?

I have been really struggling in my spirit lately. I'm terrified of leaving the UPC because of the repercussions it will cause in my life (and for my husband, who is a minister). Yet I know feeling this way just reinforces the fact that I need to "get out." I still believe in oneness, baptism, and the Holy Ghost. What I don't believe in is man made "standards" that create an environment that breeds judgmentalism and pharisetical saints. Also every church I've been in...I feel controlled....even manipulated. I can't do that anymore. But I don't know how to get out.

I hope this is okay...and that I'm not breaking any rules by posting this. I have been reading this forum lately, and it seems like there are many very balanced people on here. This seemed like a good place to go for support.

Thank you in advance.

What made me leave... whew, I don't move or make change easy, it isn't my nature. I had my fill with religion, I was done, so over it. I figured it was now or never. Left a church service in Dec 08 knowing that I would never return. I have only been back once for a family reunion in the past year. Primarily because I do feel that there is a continual teaching that makes you feel brain washed. I have no desire to return at all, not even to visit. I am happy where I am.

My only regret was not leaving 5 years ago and getting into a church where the bible is taught faithfully, and not standards or constant repetitions of scripture supporting doctrine or traditions. I just have to remember I probably wasn't ready to make the move then and don't waste time worrying about it.

My walk with God is closer than it has ever been... the peace, joy and contentment far surpasses what I have ever imagined. I go days and now even weeks where standards do not even cross my mind. (unless I come here)

Condemnation? at first I struggled for about 6 months with worrying what others thought and constantly praying for God to please convict me if I was wrong, because ultimately, all I ever want to do is be close to him.

God set me at liberty I kept hearing this scripture ringing in my ears Romans 8:15 You didn't receive a spirit that makes you a slave to fear once again. Instead you received the Holy Spirit, who makes you God's child. By the Spirit's power we call God "Abba." Abba means Father.

I turned to studying the word, especially Romans for a while, the more I studied and prayed, he just set me free as I realized my place in him. Now I truly understand Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

If I am walking and abiding in him, there is no one that can condemn me, no one can judge me, no one can take away my freedom and liberty in him. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks, it is what my Father thinks about me. I am confident and assured that he loves me and I am his. What more do I need?

The longer I am out, the more I study, the more the Spirit reveals to me more every day.... I think different, there has been a true mind change. I can be studying and things will jump out at me when I realize what the scriptures are truly saying without hearing everything revolve around pet scriptures or concepts of religion I was raised with. wow... it has been amazing.

I am a much more effectual witness for Christ, in fact co-workers tell me that I look like a load has been lifted and they feel the freedom in my Spirit. Because I no longer look at myself being above my Christian friends and co workers, the walls have come down... they are open to study with me. We get together and study, watch teaching videos and pray together. I have learned so much from them, and they from me.

True baptism is a circumcision of the heart, and I am more interested in seeing my friends draw closer to God, live for him with all their heart, mind and soul... than ever squabbling over how they were baptized. It just seems so shallow now.

I have several people who I grew up in the church who write to me on facebook wanting to know how and what has happened. I have one women that I now study with showing her a more perfect way.

Fear and intimidation of people is a horrible thing to face.. there is a scripture in Revelations that made me realize that I can not live in fear and intimidation of people, family, religion...man period. I have to love God more than my own life and be willing to face my fears to accomplish what he has for me.

Rev 12:11 And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony. And they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die.

whew...sorry to be so long, I still ramble.

[ForeverBlessed]

oh, forgot... I was a 4th generation UPC, daughter of licensed pastor over 40 years, sister of UPC pastor with a family deeply ingrained in the culture. (still are) God started revealing things to me over 8 years ago. It was a long, long road for me to travel as I am afraid of change.

My ex husband tried to get me to leave in the early 90's, long before the failure of my marriage. My ex just thought differently, but I refused to listen to much he had to say even though he spent hours studying the bible. I trusted my dad and family more. Recently I went to see my ex, had a long talk with him about what I am studying. Tears filled his eyes and he said he couldn't believe how far I have matured in the word of God. He just said "Lisa, you would have never listened to me, but I'm glad for you".

Someone earlier mentioned love....and the love that God has given me for people is one of the biggest changes. I just can't think myself better than anyone and truly love them the way he wants me to love people.

The way I was raised breeds superiority in just about everything, so that was a mindset that had to break.

[On The Wheel]

Originally Posted by Mirth1981

Hi...I don't intend for this thread to be started as a debate. I would just like to hear stories from those that have left the UPC.

Specifically...What made you finally decide to leave? Was it difficult? Were you able to find a church that wasn't "easy believism" but yet one that didn't enforce extra-biblical principles where you could go and worship God in your own way? Do you have any regrets? Anything you wish you had done differently? How is your walk with God now? Do you still suffer from self condemnation and feel brainwashed?

I have been really struggling in my spirit lately. I'm terrified of leaving the UPC because of the repercussions it will cause in my life (and for my husband, who is a minister). Yet I know feeling this way just reinforces the fact that I need to "get out." I still believe in oneness, baptism, and the Holy Ghost. What I don't believe in is man made "standards" that create an environment that breeds judgmentalism and pharisetical saints. Also every church I've been in...I feel controlled....even manipulated. I can't do that anymore. But I don't know how to get out.

I hope this is okay...and that I'm not breaking any rules by posting this. I have been reading this forum lately, and it seems like there are many very balanced people on here. This seemed like a good place to go for support.

Thank you in advance.

I'm not out. However, the past couple of years God has led my wife and I on a scriptural journey down truth lane. Neither she nor I have any personal desire to modify traditional holiness stances as declared by most mainstream UPCI churches. After all, this is what we were raised with. It's our tradition, and we are comfortable with it. My primary concern is declaring truth to those who are coming into the church. We are asking them to forsake things that scripture never asks of them. We are placing stumbling blocks in the path of newly born babes.

As a pastor, I have always taken the unequivocal stand that the Word of God reigns supreme in all matters of doctrine, as the Apostles declared. And while I fully support the concept of house rules and church traditions, I am have become very resistant to applying those strictures to everyone, everywhere in Christendom. Our blatantly traditional stands, some of which made better sense years ago, have become less and less anchored to scriptural truth and become more about maintaining the status quo by any means necessary. And that means frequently is the excessive use of fear. Anyone who has differing interpretations of "holiness" scriptures are summarily dismissed as spiritual harlots and condemned to a devils Hell.

The more I search scriptures about some of these things, the more I find solace in the search for fruit among his followers, rather than a cursory judgment of a person's personal walk with God based upon their traditional interpretations of scriptures concerning outward holiness. This is especially true when considering the traditional UPCI stand on dress.

Deuteronomy 22:5 stands as a lone scriptural pylon, used to support a traditional position that condemns all bifurcated garment wearing women in all times and places to an abominable hell. However, bible scholars are not in agreement concerning what this verse means. Commentators views vary wildly from the idea that the differences are in only in cut, color, and fringing, to others that say it means women cannot even perform traditional masculine labor (that would go over great today). In light of the fact that there is not one supporting scripture proscribing divided leg garments on women (and no verses that cover this in the NT at all), I have no choice but to allow women wearing pants a chance to prove their worthiness to the Lord in other ways (such as love, fruit, and a Christian lifestyle). I also found it interesting to note that God never asked the Israelites to be separate in clothing styles. Historians and commentators attest that they wore the same clothes as the nations round about.

This post grows too long. For the sake of brevity, I will just say this. There is a sense of growing restlessness in the ranks of late. Men who want to see Christ become Lord in lives everywhere are constantly stymied by the truth. When new converts, or old saints, begin to ask questions, there are no answers forthcoming except dogmatic declarations of traditional positions, which are often sprinkled with half truths or parroted positions that are often not researched out by the speaker.

We are prayerfully looking for a way out. I'm not sure what God has in store, but my faith is in him. Interestingly enough, God was dealing with me long before I ever shared this with my wife. I'm ashamed to admit that I was afraid to declare the truths I had discovered. One night the dam finally broke one night. I had become so miserable I could hardly sleep or eat and my wife demanded to know what was wrong. I then told her my heart. To my astonishment, she had been feeling some of the same things and had been making her own studies and arriving at similar conclusions.

I would say, just let it unfold. Perhaps we can pray together for a God's will. Love your spouse and allow nothing to separate you.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by On The Wheel

I'm not out. However, the past couple of years God has led my wife and I on a scriptural journey down truth lane. Neither she nor I have any personal desire to modify traditional holiness stances as declared by most mainstream UPCI churches.

I would say, just let it unfold. Perhaps we can pray together for a God's will. Love your spouse and allow nothing to separate you.

I would quote all but for space sake cut most of it just want to say good words of advice.

Joining in prayer

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by On The Wheel

I'm not out. However, the past couple of years God has led my wife and I on a scriptural journey down truth lane. Neither she nor I have any personal desire to modify traditional holiness stances as declared by most mainstream UPCI churches. After all, this is what we were raised with. It's our tradition, and we are comfortable with it. My primary concern is declaring truth to those who are coming into the church. We are asking them to forsake things that scripture never asks of them. We are placing stumbling blocks in the path of newly born babes.

Thank you for this very honest post!