Modesty as described by the General Youth Division

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Eccentric. Looking nice and being consumed with how you look are two different things. I'm married. My wife played this Pentecost game. You may not be into the fashion show culture, but many women are -- and would even admit to it. Just wait until a big conference is coming up and see how many are getting a brand-new outfit. And it's like baby names, the more crazy, different and out there, the better!

Dress up if you must. Dress up to "the nines" if you must. But don't purport to be a warrior for modesty, while beating others down for modest jewelry and make-up like Pentecost does.

AQP hit the nail on the head with her friend, who is unfortunately quite typical: "They are staring at me because of the glory of God on me..."

Goodness, Jeffrey - There are people walking around the mall dripping in lip and nose rings. What difference could it make if we dress up to look nice? How can that ever be immodest? And some of us don't play a game. We just get dressed. I just dress a little different now. I don't have plunging necklines, strapless tops and skin tight jeans with heels.

All of it is vanity to a point. Some of it should be healthy pride in our appearance. When I go to town, I always get compliments on my hair. Sometimes it's really annoying! Especially when you are in a hurry. I want to say, "Stop gushing over my hair and grow your own. You can do it!" Women LOVE long hair, but they don't want to take the time and care of it. I guess that's how extensions came into play. Like breast implants. LOL!

I agree with MB, it's the attitude and not the clothing. If we could realize that we could stop acting like Eeyore about everything.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Looks CHEAP!? Huh? Maybe I can see your point. But those items most certainly aren't the epitome of "cheap."

Other "modest" accesories: beads in the hair (as opposed to neck)... fancy broaches (instead of rings), clips, 50 chopsticks at once, shimmer pantyhose, metallic purses, OD on lip gloss...

The most eccentric dresses I've ever seen have been at church events. They seriously could compete with Paris.

I was discussing this with a friend... we agreed that many times we do this to overcompensate for not wearing makeup. We want to look pretty. It's natural for women to want to look beautiful. And since makeup is forbidden for us, we sometimes go overboard on what is acceptable to compensate.

(not broad-brushing, but it's true in many cases)

[Jeffrey]

I *don't* believe those verses prohibit jewelry or nice clothing, but I do think one definition of modesty is that you don't draw excess attention to yourself. Paul did say that women should dress in modest apparel. I personally don't think he was referring exclusively to the amount of skin that was shown.

I don't think we have enough evidence to show this passage was ever regarding the exposure of skin. Appropriate is appropriate. Well-said again...

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Miss B, I am not talking about being dressed up. I love to dress up. I own a gazillion pairs of high heels, I love clothes, and I love to fix my hair nice, wear bright colors, I adore clothes.

I'm talking about WEIRD hairdos, for one thing. There is a friend of mine who many of us are honestly embarrassed to go to the mall with. Because her hairdo is OUT THERE. She gets stares everywhere she goes. She even commented on it once - 'Everyone is staring at me, they can see the glory of God on me'. Um, no. They're staring at you because your hairdo is WEIRD.

Haha! Well, you always have to have at least one retro fashionista, don't you? Remember--we're getting older. What looks weird to us might not look weird to everyone else. And to be fair, one bun is pretty much equal to another, no matter whether it's on the back of the head or on the side. At least, in the eyes of the secular world, and its opinion of "weirdness."

If you're dressed up, you're not going to stand out that much. Everyone will just assume you're dressed up. But if you have on a jean skirt, a t-shirt, sandals....and a huge barrel-curled updo, it just draws attention.

I'm not talking about normal "being dressed up." I'm talking outlandish. And if you haven't seen outlandish, you haven't been to some of the conferences I've been to.

Yes, I HAVE seen outlandish, and as Jeffrey so kindly pointed out earlier, it brings to mind a Paris catwalk. LOL!!! Which really means "edgy fashion." But I have to be practical about these things, because I have two daughters. Hannah isn't really into dressing up--but more than she used to be. However, she has long, thick, heavy blond hair that is a lot easier to handle if it's put up, and so even when she's dressed casually, her hair is up. What do you suggest? That when she's dressed casually she can only do a ponytail or braids?

Sarah, the younger girl--well, the other day she wore these new high top tennis shoes that she adores with a pink-dotted t-shirt, a turquoise corduroy knee-length straight skirt, white leggings with neon colored peace signs all over them and a glittery rainbow colored headband!!!!! What can I do? It's Sarah. LOL!!!! I'm doing good to keep her from flashing the peace sign at everyone she meets and discourage her from dancing to hip-hop music (at least in public). I pick my battles. Does she stand out? Uh...yes. Does she put anyone off with her...er...flair for fashion? No, because the kid is gregarious, funny and kind (except when she overdoes the wit for comic effect), and doesn't meet a stranger. My only recent rule to try to keep her in line, fashionably speaking, is no more than three colors at a time.

Looking at the outward person to ascertain a person's character is a secular habit that Christians should avoid. I shudder to think that my daughters would be harshly judged for dressing this way or that way, when in truth they're both an absolute pleasure to know (of course I have to say that! ), and both of them love God with all their little ♥'s.

Look at groups of young people the same way you would look at your own kids--see kids--not fashionistas. See the person--not the dress. They're at youth convention instead of out with their friends drinking, doing drugs, having sex, etc. There's something to be happy about. I'd rather they be at youth convention obnoxiously dressed than not.

[missourimary]

There is nothing wrong with dressing nicely. But if we go in debt or persuade someone else that they should to dress up... if we can look in our closets-yes, plural-with over 70 blouses and at least 30 skirts (plus other outfits-dresses, jackets and such) in them, and say we have nothing to wear to church because what we have just isn't good enough, there may be a problem.

Believe me, been there.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Looks CHEAP!? Huh? Maybe I can see your point. But those items most certainly aren't the epitome of "cheap."

Other "modest" accesories: beads in the hair (as opposed to neck)... fancy broaches (instead of rings), clips, 50 chopsticks at once, shimmer pantyhose, metallic purses, OD on lip gloss...

The most eccentric dresses I've ever seen have been at church events. They seriously could compete with Paris.

Renda and talked about the "bling-bling" on clothing some months ago. I asked if people still wear that on their clothing. She said, "YES!". So, the next time I went to the mall I ran into Dillards to check it out. Karen Kane can't make beading look pretty to me. It's just not me. So, my opinion for myself is that it looks cheap. I don't like it. I would feel silly wearing something like that.

I don't wear things in my hair either, don't carry gaudy purses (black leather only), no shimmery hosiery, etc. etc. I'm just a basic Anne Klein girl. Pumps, jackets and straight skirts.

[dizzyde]

Originally Posted by Brother David

Do you ladies actually enjoy wear high heels? Ow!

Why can't we have some sort of cultural programming that says "sensible shoes only?"

I LOVE heels!! Not so much how they make my feet feel, but I love how they look, and let's be honest, they make a woman walk more gracefully.... unless of course you are a clumsy woman...

I always feel more like a girl when I have a pair of heels on! I (of course) prefer the comfort of my flip-flops, but they don't really do much in the way of adding gracefulness!

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree with MB, it's the attitude and not the clothing. If we could realize that we could stop acting like Eeyore about everything.

Having a discussion about what modesty truly means, and how we can apply it, isn't acting like Eeyore.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Goodness, Jeffrey - There are people walking around the mall dripping in lip and nose rings. What difference could it make if we dress up to look nice? How can that ever be immodest? And some of us don't play a game. We just get dressed. I just dress a little different now. I don't have plunging necklines, strapless tops and skin tight jeans with heels.

All of it is vanity to a point. Some of it should be healthy pride in our appearance. When I go to town, I always get compliments on my hair. Sometimes it's really annoying! Especially when you are in a hurry. I want to say, "Stop gushing over my hair and grow your own. You can do it!" Women LOVE long hair, but they don't want to take the time and care of it. I guess that how extensions came into play. Like breast implants. LOL!

I agree with MB, it's the attitude and not the clothing. If we could realize that we could stop acting like Eeyore about everything.

You seem to define modesty by those terms, when that wasn't even Paul's intent.

Your question: "How can dressing up to look nice ever be immodest?" I ask you that back. Can it in your opinion? This is exactly the question we are answering. We aren't slamming dressing up!

Re hair. Another interesting subject. Hair is sensual, jewish women and early Christians covered it. Interesting that we interpret uncut, remove the covering and flaunt our long hair (something that would be shocking in the first century). Hardly modest. BUT... BUT... I won't hijack the thread. Just think that COULD be a great tangent!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I was discussing this with a friend... we agreed that many times we do this to overcompensate for not wearing makeup. We want to look pretty. It's natural for women to want to look beautiful. And since makeup is forbidden for us, we sometimes go overboard on what is acceptable to compensate.

(not broad-brushing, but it's true in many cases)

I'm not sure that we overcompensate for the no makeup. I had my hair permed and frosted for years before I got in church. I did both - the hair and makeup. Thank God that I don't fool with the makeup anymore. Lord, I hated it!

The world makes you feel you have to wear it. That your aren't accepted without it. "Put on your face!" I hated that pressure, just as much as those hate what they feel is pressure to keep standards.