Thou shalt murder?

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Can you give us personal experience where you were commanded to do so, but did not????

I can give you plenty of examples of MEN telling me what "God Said", but later found out it was what "MAN said", and that God had nothing to do with what they told me was true. Didn’t you read my post about Galileo??

I have also done extensive research on the Holocaust, WWII, Vietnam, and many other great conflicts of our past and present. I also spent 6 years in the Marines where we were trained to kill.

You know brother, the real issue here is genocide. Killing women, children, the elderly, the handicapped, and those unable to defend themselves, and then purging a Nation of no hope to exist. This is inhumane, and validating what this looks like from our modern capability to produce photographs and video is beyond sad, beyond heartless, and why past civilizations could get away with this. The common people of the World only heard, and did not SEE! Dead people strewn about like worthless souls, burned, shot, gassed, and slaughtered, and then add the children! The women! The old! Those who don’t understand! I'm sorry, but I don't even think you could do this.

Only those who are bound by either a sick mind, or have a psychopathic desire to rule the world, would kill people like this. Like I said, bring Amalek to "Now", and watch the outrage by most Countries and peoples on the Earth, regardless of race, creed, or religion. This act was would be labled as something Hilter would do.

I have never been asked to do something like this, and if I was, I could never hold a sword to the throat of innocent children, or helpless people pleading for mercy. Even as trained killers in the Marines, we were bound by certain ethics while defending a righteous cause by taking down a dictator or a deadly tyrant like Hitler. When the Soldier goes beyond certain barriers and “loses” it, that is when they KILL like the Soldiers of Amalek. They blind their conscience and BURN the village like madmen, with everyone inside!

What happened in Amalek, makes no difference when it happened. People are people, children are children, a pregnant woman is a pregnant woman, and murder is murder, regardless if a man told him, "God Said".

[Godsdrummer]

NFS

While I agree with what you are saying to a degree 99%. My understanding of past wars and history children were used and indoctrinated with the ideas and principles of any given society. Which is why it takes generations to change societies from one way of thinking to another. I understand even in vietnam children would be used to kill Americans. As hard has it seems to us letting a mother live to teach her unborn child to hate God and his people would just bring back years later what God was tryng to rid Isreal in one fell sweep. Inocent pregnant mothers I don't think so. The Amlekite that finaly killed Saul was one of those he let live.

Just my thoughts

[Godsdrummer]

I do want to say thought I agree 100% about the God said thoughts much more I could say on this subject like where do we get even the idea God put a man over us as a authority? But I must get ready for work

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

NFS

While I agree with what you are saying to a degree 99%. My understanding of past wars and history children were used and indoctrinated with the ideas and principles of any given society. Which is why it takes generations to change societies from one way of thinking to another. I understand even in vietnam children would be used to kill Americans. As hard has it seems to us letting a mother live to teach her unborn child to hate God and his people would just bring back years later what God was tryng to rid Isreal in one fell sweep. Inocent pregnant mothers I don't think so. The Amlekite that finaly killed Saul was one of those he let live.

Just my thoughts

It is interesting to note, the genocide or elimination of people(s) has never made the World a better place to live.

Let's look at the Flood. Noah was able to start all over, and man simply picked up where he left off.

Look what happened after the Children of Israel said in the last chapter of Joshua, Nay, but we will serve the Lord. Step over into the Book of Judges, where they had completely given over to idolatry and evil beyond our imagination.

Israel blamed the inhabitants of the land, so does that mean we can blame other Americans who influence us to sin and then fall, especially when that fall will lead us to Eternal Hell? Maybe we should NUKE San Francisco, where homosexuals have such a strong voice. Get rid of those dirty rotten Amalekites! Once we wipe them off the face of the earth, the World will be a better place to live.

People say the World was different than back then. Then get rid of the Old Testament. Why read a series of books that are obsolete, and don't apply to the now? If we are different, and are not human like they were, then we can't relate to them, nor should we learn from them. The fact is, we are not different. Read Proverbs. This books describes the human spirit quite well.

Look at Solomon: 1 Kings 11 (King James Version)

1But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:

2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

This is the wisest man that ever lived, and yet, he tumbled into the arms of women from many nations, his heart totally vexed with vain pleasure. We still do this today. We still want sex, and shack around like nobody's business.

Should Israel have killed everybody on Earth, so only they were left??

Look at the Middle East today. The whole area is a hot bed of strife and hatred, blood boiling up from the soil. Wars, murder, and fierce anger between peoples who are related, all because they've killed each other since the beggining.

I don't think the World would be any better if you killed every single human being accept one man, and one woman. We would just cycle right back into the process of historical clamor.

It seems if we would just learn from this, we might (hold your breath) LOVE each other a little more and stop the KILLING..........

Thanks Bro, for your thoughts.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Sam

What we call the 6th commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" was quoted by Jesus as "Thou shalt do no murder" in Matthew 19:18.

YHWH made a difference between murder and the taking of life in battle or in capital punishment. God set up provisions for punishing someone who murdered someone else by instituting capital punishment before the law of Moses in Genesis 9:5-6. In the law of Moses capital punishment was to be administered for certain crimes such as murder, adultery, witchcraft, etc. The Apostle Paul reiterates the divine right for government to take a person's life as punishment in some cases in Romans 13:1-8.

One of the ways God has punished people in the past is by killing them. He did this to individuals and to groups. He did this in Noah's day by sending a flood. He did it in Exodus chapter 12 by killing the firstborn in every home that did not have the blood applied to the doorposts. And He did it through Israel to the people who lived in Canaan. Today we would call the way Israel conquered Canaan genocide or ethnic cleansing but it was the way God brought judgment upon them. Later, God brought judgment upon Israel through Babylon. We see that in the book of Habakkuk. This was under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant we are not commanded to kill off people to carry out the judgment of God.

Romans 13 justifies capital punishment? Interesting interpretation, Sam. Wow. Respecting the law, and advocating capital punishment as a Christian are two different things.

Sam, it is truly hard to understand the Divine Prerogative. As you stated, not only did not command mass genocides, He also put His own people through a Holocaust by anointing the Persians, Babylonians and Assyrians. They crushed babies against the walls. All ordained and empowered by God Almighty.

Perhaps, in our sensitized culture (a culture where hand-to-hand combat is not common for every citizen anymore) what we really get is a realization that God is still God, and He hasn't changed. Jesus isn't the new God. The God of the OT is still the same, if the scriptures are true. There is a part of trusting God's judgement and perspective, but are we sick to our stomachs over the violence because of not being accustomed to that today, or are we sickened because of the Imago Dei and the terror of the destruction of life that God Himself put into us?

NOW, this is a good topic. Sort of related to the Pacifist debate last week.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by easter

NFS your asking questions about the authority of God and your never going to get a recording of God's voice because then what good would Faith be?We don't understand the whole plan of God and right now we only see dimly through a mirror but then face to face.
You seem angry at God,are you?

That's a poor interpretation of 1 Cor 13. It was eschatological, not a matter of immaturity of some flawed image. Back to Paul's already/not yet eschatology.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Warfare has switched from physical to spiritual.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Was there not a spiritual battle in the OT?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

As a matter of fact I can't find anything in the New Testament that would convience me that the Church should have a physical military arm. Having some understanding of the teachings of Jesus, I doubt there would be a command to His Church/Spiritual Kingdom to totally destroy a Nation physically, like He did in the Old Testament. The caveat being, God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants whether we agree with it or not.

Then why do we encourage our men to enlist in the service, pray for them for safety (therefore praying doom against their enemies, who are just young men representing a different poitical cause)? How can we celebrate "patriotic" war, herald patriotic movies of "bravery" when the Christian image of "bravery" is a bleeding Savior, who gives His life willingly with unclenched fists. Please explain...

[Jeffrey]

Does God still execute judgement in this New Covenant, as He did in the Old Covenant? Has that changed for some reason? It doesn't seem so with a couple being slain for lying to the Spirit (whatever that meant).

Why then, are we always so certain that any enemy of America is an enemy of God? Why do we resist all negativity in our lives as a product of the devil, when it could be a storm sent from God?

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

It is interesting to note, the genocide or elimination of people(s) has never made the World a better place to live.

Let's look at the Flood. Noah was able to start all over, and man simply picked up where he left off.

Look what happened after the Children of Israel said in the last chapter of Joshua, Nay, but we will serve the Lord. Step over into the Book of Judges, where they had completely given over to idolatry and evil beyond our imagination.

Israel blamed the inhabitants of the land, so does that mean we can blame other Americans who influence us to sin and then fall, especially when that fall will lead us to Eternal Hell? Maybe we should NUKE San Francisco, where homosexuals have such a strong voice. Get rid of those dirty rotten Amalekites! Once we wipe them off the face of the earth, the World will be a better place to live.

People say the World was different than back then. Then get rid of the Old Testament. Why read a series of books that are obsolete, and don't apply to the now? If we are different, and are not human like they were, then we can't relate to them, nor should we learn from them. The fact is, we are not different. Read Proverbs. This books describes the human spirit quite well.

Look at Solomon: 1 Kings 11 (King James Version)

1But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites:

2Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.

3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

This is the wisest man that ever lived, and yet, he tumbled into the arms of women from many nations, his heart totally vexed with vain pleasure. We still do this today. We still want sex, and shack around like nobody's business.

Should Israel have killed everybody on Earth, so only they were left??

Look at the Middle East today. The whole area is a hot bed of strife and hatred, blood boiling up from the soil. Wars, murder, and fierce anger between peoples who are related, all because they've killed each other since the beggining.

I don't think the World would be any better if you killed every single human being accept one man, and one woman. We would just cycle right back into the process of historical clamor.

It seems if we would just learn from this, we might (hold your breath) LOVE each other a little more and stop the KILLING..........

Thanks Bro, for your thoughts.

I’m not particularly well versed in Biblical hermeneutics, but I will share my personal thoughts about the subject. When reading the OT, one must keep in mind the vile and destructive nature that existed within some of these surrounding tribes. They were essentially cults. It is a bit naïve to think that the Israelites could “love” them into better people. “Godly influence” was unrealistic. In a sense, it truly was kill or be killed. See (2 Kings 16:1-3) (2 Kings 21:6) (2 Kings 23:10) (Jeremiah 3:24) (Deuteronomy 12:31) (Ezekiel 23:39) I will say this though, I sincerely believe that it was God’s ultimate design for Abraham’s seed, and by extension, the nation of Israel, to gather (not kill) people unto his purpose. We know God was often quite capable and willing to graft Gentiles into his master plan. (Joshua 6:23) (Ruth 1:22). I draw a line when considering God’s corporate punishments, as I do not presume to understand God’s reasoning and mind. It would be arrogant on my part to think that I could comprehend the beginning from the ending. If I did, it would effectively eliminate my need for faith.

You say there was not much difference between then and today. I disagree. Today we enjoy more understanding of the nature of God and morality than the OT characters of the Bible. Remember, (and you even said it yourself), they did not have the “Bible” as we know it, or Immanuel Kant’s philosophical contributions on logical conclusions to moral maxims and “The Golden Rule.” Society was rather primitive compared to today’s standards. Certainly, the Apostle Paul was aware of the contrasting social dynamics when he preached on Mars Hill (Acts 17:26-31). Our Brother Paul also eloquently noted the “better” parts of the New Covenant versus the Old one in the book of Hebrews.

I guess what I’m trying to say, is that many of these things are better understood contextually, in synergy with our own life experience and learning. Did God speak to OT prophets? I believe he did. Many of their prophecies bear out the truth. How do you differentiate the ones who told the truth from the ones who didn't?