Milk or Meat Sermons?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Abbi,
Just ran across this post at GNC. It's only part of it, but what is she saying here?

".... Then our Lord Jesus took human flesh and came down to us and told us the broader picture (which the Jewish people had not yet been ready to accept and understand):..."

Sounds like an eternal co-existence to me? I would have said, "Then our Lord took human flesh."

To me, it's saying that Jesus eternally co-existed. Not sure about every denomination, but I KNOW the Assemblies of God believe in eternal coexistence. (I can provide links for notofworks, if necessary )

What's the point of saying Jesus & the Father "co-existed", if not to point out that they are separate (albeit unified) deities?

Oddly enough, the OT has several references to the "holy spirit", but yet the Jews never used that to come up with "two who work in unity."

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Oddly enough, the OT has several references to the "holy spirit", but yet the Jews never used that to come up with "two who work in unity."

I think much of the confusion stems from the fact that in the NT there are numerous references about the Father AND the Son, and other wording that sounds confusing. Jesus himself using wording such as I AND my Father. It's the 'and' that throws people for a loop.

There is a lot of verbiage in the NT that can really make you scratch your head.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Something very similar? Hmmm.....

All I said was that I've never heard anyone who sees Jesus Christ as deity, say that there are three Gods. It seems like I should ask YOU why that bugs YOU so much!

So you're tell me that your father-in-law, who is an Assembly of God preacher, literally professes THREE THRONES occupied by THREE GODS? I'm surprised the AG tolerates that.

Herbert W. Armstrong who founded the Church of God (The Cleveland, Tenn group) was well-known for teaching three Gods. But he was never taken seriously by mainstream orthodox Christian belief and was seen by most as a dangerous heretic.

But seriously, if you're perceiving me to be "bugged" so much, I'll just move on. I thought we were having a civilized discussion. I'm not sure why you threw that at me. But for whatever I did that didn't settle well, I'm sorry.

This is what bugs me: When I'm having a conversation with someone, I detest being asked the same question repeatedly, because I answer truthfully the first time. I don't like to be asked, "Are you sure?" It annoys the heck out of me. I'm a very honest person, and I don't need to repeat my answers or think them through a second time to make sure I'm telling the truth. It makes me feel like I'm being called a liar for someone to keep saying, "Are you sure? Really? Did it REALLY happen like that? Did they REALLY say that?" So that kind of set my teeth on edge....

I acknowledge that there are people who attend trinitarian churches who really believe in 1 God. However, they often don't understand how to explain it, and if they try, they get tripped up by trinitarian dogma. OR if they do, they don't feel it's important enough to point out to other people who may disagree with their view.

You seem completely unwilling to accept the idea that there are trinitarians who believe in three distinct, separate deities in the "unified godhead." I just want to know why you're so reluctant to accept that idea. It does seem to bug you--enough for you to push back at my statements as if you think I'm being disingenuous or interpreting trinitarian statements in a way that supports what I already think about them, instead of interpreting them honestly.

So, I'm just wanting to know: Why does that idea bother you?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I think much of the confusion stems from the fact that in the NT there are numerous references about the Father AND the Son, and other wording that sounds confusing. Jesus himself using wording such as I AND my Father. It's the 'and' that throws people for a loop.

There is a lot of verbiage in the NT that can really make you scratch your head.

You're right, there are many things in the NT that seem to throw a monkey wrench into our understanding of God. John 1:1, 14...."and the Word was God", and "the Word became flesh", as well as "there is one God". The "I and Thou" relationship of Jesus to the Father. Jesus' prayers, lack of knowledge, having to grow in wisdom and the fact that Jesus is the Almighty.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

This is what bugs me: When I'm having a conversation with someone, I detest being asked the same question repeatedly, because I answer truthfully the first time. I don't like to be asked, "Are you sure?" It annoys the heck out of me. I'm a very honest person, and I don't need to repeat my answers or think them through a second time to make sure I'm telling the truth. It makes me feel like I'm being called a liar for someone to keep saying, "Are you sure? Really? Did it REALLY happen like that? Did they REALLY say that?" So that kind of set my teeth on edge....

I acknowledge that there are people who attend trinitarian churches who really believe in 1 God. However, they often don't understand how to explain it, and if they try, they get tripped up by trinitarian dogma. OR if they do, they don't feel it's important enough to point out to other people who may disagree with their view.

You seem completely unwilling to accept the idea that there are trinitarians who believe in three distinct, separate deities in the "unified godhead." I just want to know why you're so reluctant to accept that idea. It does seem to bug you--enough for you to push back at my statements as if you think I'm being disingenuous or interpreting trinitarian statements in a way that supports what I already think about them, instead of interpreting them honestly.

So, I'm just wanting to know: Why does that idea bother you?

I think I better just leave you alone! ......unless you wanna talk about the World Series.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

This is what bugs me: When I'm having a conversation with someone, I detest being asked the same question repeatedly, because I answer truthfully the first time. I don't like to be asked, "Are you sure?" It annoys the heck out of me. I'm a very honest person, and I don't need to repeat my answers or think them through a second time to make sure I'm telling the truth. It makes me feel like I'm being called a liar for someone to keep saying, "Are you sure? Really? Did it REALLY happen like that? Did they REALLY say that?" So that kind of set my teeth on edge....

I acknowledge that there are people who attend trinitarian churches who really believe in 1 God. However, they often don't understand how to explain it, and if they try, they get tripped up by trinitarian dogma. OR if they do, they don't feel it's important enough to point out to other people who may disagree with their view.

You seem completely unwilling to accept the idea that there are trinitarians who believe in three distinct, separate deities in the "unified godhead." I just want to know why you're so reluctant to accept that idea. It does seem to bug you--enough for you to push back at my statements as if you think I'm being disingenuous or interpreting trinitarian statements in a way that supports what I already think about them, instead of interpreting them honestly.

So, I'm just wanting to know: Why does that idea bother you?

First, stop whining.

But on top of that I find it interesting that you think Trinitarians get tripped up in their dogma but Oneness folks have it all figured out. The teachings of some on Oneness smack of this arrogance. I understand God and you don't attitude gets old.

I have a lot of family that consider themselves Trinitarian and they don't buy the line your peddling. Now my anecdotal evidence is heavier than your because I included more people in mine. Beyond that, read what Trinitarian theologians write, not what one or two people say.

Oneness people refuse to admit that the Godhead is not as easily explained as they would have you believe.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

To me, it's saying that Jesus eternally co-existed. Not sure about every denomination, but I KNOW the Assemblies of God believe in eternal coexistence. (I can provide links for notofworks, if necessary )

What's the point of saying Jesus & the Father "co-existed", if not to point out that they are separate (albeit unified) deities?

Oddly enough, the OT has several references to the "holy spirit", but yet the Jews never used that to come up with "two who work in unity."

I agree that's what she meant. She's also a Catholic and that was my understanding also - That Jesus and God were two separate persons. I don't remember having any thoughts on the Holy Ghost. So, I can't comment there.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

First, stop whining.

You're so SCARY and right in time for Halloween too!

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

First, stop whining.

But on top of that I find it interesting that you think Trinitarians get tripped up in their dogma but Oneness folks have it all figured out. The teachings of some on Oneness smack of this arrogance. I understand God and you don't attitude gets old.

When did I EVER say that oneness folks have it all figured out? In fact, I said, specifically that there are oneness people who are really "twoness", and that's just one faction...we can leave off Branhamites, divine fleshers, and other twists on doctrine.

I have a lot of family that consider themselves Trinitarian and they don't buy the line your peddling. Now my anecdotal evidence is heavier than your because I included more people in mine. Beyond that, read what Trinitarian theologians write, not what one or two people say.

Oneness people refuse to admit that the Godhead is not as easily explained as they would have you believe.

I don't really get the "whining" comment.

I have no "line" to peddle, Baron. I have no agenda behind stating that there are some trinitarians who believe in 3 separate and distinct "beings" or deities in the godhead, and additionally believe that those 3 eternally "co-existed."

I have a husband who was saved from a trinitarian church and baptized in Jesus' name and he knew people who believed both as well. He had a Sunday School teacher who believed in oneness doctrine (and taught in a trinitarian church), and she was the first one who introduced him to the truth. His dad is so dogmatic, that he "disowned" Jeff for awhile, told him he'd rather he was part of the Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses than "Jesus-only" and I didn't meet his parents until our wedding, about three years after Jeff was converted.

The way some of you talk, there was absolutely no reason for my husband to convert.

My mother was converted from being a Baptist; she was praying and read I Timothy 3:16, which opened her eyes to a new understanding of God.

Hey, if it doesn't matter how it's explained, if we all really believe the same thing, then don't try to convert any trinitarians to oneness doctrine or being baptized in Jesus' name.

But...maybe that's your take already.

I've spoken to a lot of trinitarians, have a lot of family members who are trinitarians, and have friends who are trinitarian. MOST of them say they believe in one God, but in that group, many of them still express their understanding in a way that reflects the "separate & distinct but unified" idea. SOME of them express specifically that they believe in three gods. Additionally, I've sat in the room while my Dad argued with trinitarians for HOURS, and I know that many of them do believe in 3, while others will not only say they believe in 1, but will also state that baptism in Jesus' name is probably the way the apostles baptized. For some reason, some of them won't follow through on that profession, either because they don't think it matters, or because they think either mode is equally biblical.

I'm just stating my true experience. I know that some people put words in other folks' mouths. They deliberately confuse them and then say, "Aha! You really DO believe in 3 gods." I'm surprised that you would put me in that agenda-driven disingenuous group.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I think I better just leave you alone! ......unless you wanna talk about the World Series.

Why? Just answer my question. I tried my best to answer all of yours.