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04-02-2009, 05:24 PM
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Location: Boston, Massachusetts
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
hmmm not just according to the flesh though. He was the Son of God. The Son is not simply a container for divinity.
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Isn't the Son inferior to the Father? The Son was flesh, or at least that's how I always understood it. The Son was the container for divinity, so that the Father could live thru a human body, perfectly, and then die.
-Bro. Alex
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04-02-2009, 05:55 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen
Isn't the Son inferior to the Father? The Son was flesh, or at least that's how I always understood it. The Son was the container for divinity, so that the Father could live thru a human body, perfectly, and then die.
-Bro. Alex
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That is one view among OPs. I don't share that view. I could not use the word "inferior" either. I believe both the Son and the Father are fully God. One with the added component of genuine humanity and one without the same.
I do not view the Son as "just" flesh or container, but God in Flesh. Even in the sense of his Humanity alone the Son was not just containing Divinity, rather He was completely Human as are we.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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04-02-2009, 06:16 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
That is one view among OPs. I don't share that view. I could not use the word "inferior" either. I believe both the Son and the Father are fully God. One with the added component of genuine humanity and one without the same.
I do not view the Son as "just" flesh or container, but God in Flesh. Even in the sense of his Humanity alone the Son was not just containing Divinity, rather He was completely Human as are we.
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With of our views is more orthodox by OP standards?
... Bro. Alex begins taking out his torture instruments from his briefcase, begins looking around the plain stone room, and gets out his burlap robe and funny looking hat...
[[[Sinister voice]]] After this we'll have a few more questions...
-Bro. Alex
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04-02-2009, 06:18 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen
With of our views is more orthodox by OP standards?
... Bro. Alex begins taking out his torture instruments from his briefcase, begins looking around the plain stone room, and gets out his burlap robe and funny looking hat...
[[[Sinister voice]]] After this we'll have a few more questions...
-Bro. Alex
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Can I wear my Bowlers hat for the event? It just makes me feel loved.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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04-02-2009, 06:27 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 1,023
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Can I wear my Bowlers hat for the event? It just makes me feel loved.
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Orthodox OP catechizing and the occasional torture method to bring your crypto-trinitarian self around will be all the love you need.
No but seriously, now, as I stop playing inquisitioner... What is it that you're proposing Bro. Hoover? It seems to sound as if you are trying to make a separation of persons between the Father and the Son. Why would you not see the Son as simply a role, or manifestation, that the Father took on for 33 years while HE walked in a human body? What other explanation would you have?
-Bro. Alex
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04-02-2009, 06:36 PM
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Jesus' Name Pentecostal
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: near Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 17,805
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen
... Why would you not see the Son as simply a role, or manifestation, that the Father took on for 33 years while HE walked in a human body? ...
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Is He no longer the Son of God?
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04-02-2009, 10:06 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 69
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
So in a sense one could still say the Son was eternal - just without the added component of humanity...
At some point it seems to be more semantics than actual substantive difference.
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The Person of the Son is eternal because that Person is Supreme Eternal Jehovah, the Everlasting God. Jesus is exactly who God is.
Sonship primarily refers to God in time and humanity by humbling Himself and taking the form of a servant, being found in the likeness of men. This is why the Son is the image of the invisible God. God is invisible and cannot be seen. The Son, the man Christ Jesus, had a real beginning in Bethlehem as to the humanity while as to His Divinity His "goings forth are from everlasting" ( Micah 5:2). There was a literal day when the sonship came into existence, and that He was begotten by the Holy Ghost.
This is why the Son is never found in the O.T. with exception to prophetic references.
__________________
We're making contacts with churches for our move to minister in Serbia. Check out our website www.jttn.org.
Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
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04-02-2009, 10:10 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 69
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen
Isn't the Son inferior to the Father? The Son was flesh, or at least that's how I always understood it. The Son was the container for divinity, so that the Father could live thru a human body, perfectly, and then die.
-Bro. Alex
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You shouldn't use the term Son as though it is a container in the sense of my Tupperware holding today's lunch. The sonship is God humbling Himself and taking the form of a servant and not just a shell. Most Oneness authors like Bernard, Gordon MaGee etc. agree with this view.
Container/Shell theology is actually Appolinarianism which is wrong.
__________________
We're making contacts with churches for our move to minister in Serbia. Check out our website www.jttn.org.
Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
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04-02-2009, 10:19 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 69
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
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Originally Posted by Sam
Is He no longer the Son of God?
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You see the problem with this goes back to understanding God's original design and purpose for man in Genesis 1:26. God designed man to have dominion, to have authority over God's creation. Adam failed and so the prophecy of Genesis 3:16 gives the promise that the seed of the woman (virgin birth) would come and crush satan, regaining the authority. God came as a man to accomplish this task Himself on our behalf and continue to reign presently, and was restored to the position of total authority (MT 28:18-19). Now God is continuing to rule and reign in this humanity on our behalf as the ultimate King.
Jesus was a real man and not just some manifestation that disappeared when He ascended to Heaven. Some Oneness teach as though there were three consecutive manifestations of God and that the Father was the O.T. manifestation, the Son the N.T. and now the Holy Ghost and the Son and Father are gone. This is not accurate.
God is remaining the Father, the Eternal Spirit in heaven and everywhere else while simultaneously manifesting Himself in all His fullness through the Son of God on earth. This is why the Son of Man is on earth and in heaven at the same time ( John 3:13), because as to His humanity He was on earth and as to the Divinity He is everywhere present, together with millions gathered in His Name around the globe.
__________________
We're making contacts with churches for our move to minister in Serbia. Check out our website www.jttn.org.
Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
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04-02-2009, 10:26 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
Amen, Jeremy, I may go a bit further though.
This is a good article on the distinction between Father and Son written by Oneness Pentecostal Jason Dulle. http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstu...tsymposium.htm
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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