Obey Them that Rule???

Originally Posted by ILG

I'm not talking about personal sovereignty. I am talking about God sovereignty. Personal sovereignty also says MY pastor and MY leaders are of God because I said so!

Well, actually, you are talking about personal sovereignty simply because you insist on you being the one who gets to decide. IF your pastor and leaders are of God then it is only because God and His word say so.

Originally Posted by Michlow

Oh, well, he said he would get back to me on that

I don't think you're serious about that and it is blasphemous to joke about God in that manner. However, I do hope that you will ask Him and that you will take the time to listen to what He is saying.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Amazingly enough, I agree partially with:

Michlow
Coonskinner
Ronzo
ILG
Maybe Chan? (Not sure I know exactly what he's saying, so it seems hard to say for certain that I agree, but I think I do)

I agree with Ronzo that we decide who to submit ourselves to. I agree with Chan, that, generically speaking God has already decided who we ought to submit ourselves to (bishops, elders). I agree with Coonskinner that submission has no value until you have to obey in spite of a disagreement. I agree with ILG that we have a responsibility to place ourselves under godly leaders. I can't remember what I agree with Michlow about, but I read something I liked....I'll have to go back and find it.

I think that when you marry, you choose to submit yourself to your husband. It's your choice, but once you've made that commitment, God expects you to fulfill it. That is not to say, however, that you must obey your husband if he tells you to jump off a cliff, or if he tells you to do something that goes against God or something contrary to your convictions. However, there are smaller issues in which my will may be bent to submit to his will, and that's called "submission."

The relationship is not the same, but the principles are, IMO, when it comes to church government. When I choose to join an assembly, I believe that I am making the choice to submit myself to that leadership and "follow....as they follow Christ." That is not to say that, if the leadership were to instruct me in something contrary to God's Word that I would be required to submit, because my first allegience is to God.

However, there are smaller issues which are not a matter of disobeying God or violating my own convictions, but rather require me setting aside my own preferences, and bending my will to that of the church leadership, and that is called "submission."

If I have to submit on every matter, no matter what, no matter what the consequences, that is subservience, not submission. Submission is my choice to be obedient, within certain parameters and boundaries, keeping priorities clearly in focus. My choice is, of course, based on my ultimate submission to God, who is the One who gave me the command, and therefore the concept of submitting to my elders (and my husband...and my parents).

Whew! I admit, I was kinda worried when I saw that you had entered the fray. Here I was thinking "I am doing my best to hold off both Coon & Chan, I don't know that I can take much more."

So I was quite glad to see that you agreed with me on something, even if you couldn't remember what it was

I did want to branch off what you said about when you join an assembly, you basically agree to submit to that authority...

The funny thing is that because I cannot do that, I do not officially "belong" to any assembly. I do have a church that I visit (only once or twice a month), and I do refer to the leader as "Pastor" (as I recognize that he IS the Pastor of that church).

Because I cannot fully submit, for reasons listed repeatedly both on this thread and the church twice a month thread, I only visit church sporadically and do not get involved. Of course, I am blasted for that, but I am trying to do the best for all involved. Both to follow my own conscience, and to not cause problems in that assembly or for that Pastor. (Honestly, some of you Pastors, would you WANT someone with my thoughts, etc. to be there every service and trying to get all involved? Sharing my thoughts with the other saints, etc? Yeah, I didn't think so )

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Chan

Well, actually, you are talking about personal sovereignty simply because you insist on you being the one who gets to decide. IF your pastor and leaders are of God then it is only because God and His word say so.

I think the idea is more that we pretty much choose the assembly we attend...maybe? I do think that praying about where you attend church and whose authority you should trust is a very good idea. It should be a given.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I think the idea is more that we pretty much choose the assembly we attend...maybe?

We don't have that right. We must go where God tells us to go.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Chan

Well, actually, you are talking about personal sovereignty simply because you insist on you being the one who gets to decide. IF your pastor and leaders are of God then it is only because God and His word say so.

Well, maybe I didn't state what I meant clearly enough. I'm not saying that WE should decide, alone, who is over us. I am saying that WE + God make that determination. In other words, the leading of the Spirit is what helps us decide. We don't do this alone. Neither do we just say that the Bible says the five-fold ministry is above me and therefore whoever's church I am sitting in must be it!

[ChTatum]

Still in my prayers, Mich.

I started to type more, but that is enough.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Chan

I don't think you're serious about that and it is blasphemous to joke about God in that manner. However, I do hope that you will ask Him and that you will take the time to listen to what He is saying.

First of all I believe that unlike you, God has a sense of humor. Secondly, blasphemy is when you attribute the work of the Holy Ghost to Satan.

Thirdly, though I was being faceious, I have been praying for direction in this area, and believe that God will eventually make a way.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Chan

I don't think you're serious about that and it is blasphemous to joke about God in that manner. However, I do hope that you will ask Him and that you will take the time to listen to what He is saying.

Oh good grief. How do you know if she's serious?

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by ChTatum

Still in my prayers, Mich.

I started to type more, but that is enough.

Thanks Bro. Tatum. I'm not sure if you read the other thread where I stipulated this, but I want you to understand that I think the Pastor of the church I attend is a GREAT guy, and I have nothing against him or that congregation AT ALL! I just don't think he's right about some...well, ok many things, and that is what is at question, not him or his walk or anything.

I really want to make sure you understand that, as you know him, and I don't want you to think this is about him!