Emergent Leader says "Gay is Biblical Lifestyle"

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

So then, are temptations bondage? How do you view the saying of Christ taken from John 8:36 " If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed". Jesus said this after he he also said "whosover commiteth sin is the servant of sin". Hyperbole or not, if Christ makes one free, he/she is free indeed. To be a servant of Christ makes you free of the bondage of sin period; although no one is free from temptations, we have the power to overcome those temptations through Christ because we are His servants. To be a servant of sin takes a certain commitment away from the power of Christ and it denies the strength of the cross. This is why I do not beleive that once a homo, always a homo.

Why should a conversation evolve, when the fundamentals of salvation is really elementary?

Getting away from the homos,

Are you trying to suggest that you have no sin?

Are you saying that now that you have the Holy Ghost, you don't sin any more? Never?


11 Chronicles 7:14 implies that God's people have evil ways. However, they are still God's people. Applying that scripture's context to a saved Gentile, it would not take away from the power of Christ to have a Christian still sin.

If it was impossible for a Christian to sin, then we would not need an Advocate. God gave us One though, right?


If I sin against my brother, am I still committing a sin against God?
If yes, what's the Biblical response for the offended brother?
What then, can we infer would be God's response?


So for every Christian who has ever been addicted to, oh say, pornography-- while they were addicted, were they not saved? If so, when did they lose their salvation? When did they get saved again? Were they ever saved in the first place?

Or is it now that they have fallen, God simply throws them away because they are not fit for the Kingdom of Heaven?


If God's Grace is strong enough to save a sinner, why would it not be strong enough to keep a Christian in the throws of an addiction?

This is why we're saved by Grace and not by works.

Our righteousness is as filthy rags, even on our best days. But we are not to continue in sin as if nothing is wrong, so "grace may abound."

Sin will always be sin, wrong is wrong and there is no forgiveness for any sin except through Jesus Christ.

But to say that a Holy Ghost filled person who falls into a sinful pattern or addiction is now no longer saved is not Biblical.


By the way, the discussion has already evolved from it's original topic!

However, all of this is connected.

[Antipas]

I think that many who struggle with homosexuality need a supernatural change that's often beyond their own control. I don't rule out some genetic connections to the predisposition. God can deliver anyone, but sadly, he doesn't. Many homosexual Christians have struggled to the point of absolute despair and have committed suicide thinking that there was no hope for them. Obviously if someone struggles to the point of wanting to kill themselves, there's something VERY intense about this condition that is beyond one's conscious control.

Think about this....

If a Christian who was struggling with homosexuality and just couldn't make themselves feel attracted to the opposite gender were to read this thread what would be the impression of their hope?

Our God forgives sin. He also secures those who are truly broken hearted and mourn over their sinful inclinations. Our God is full of grace and ever merciful to those who turn to Him through the blood. I'm not perfect...I have sin that I too struggle with. Yet God keeps me and loves me through his grace. I do not stand before him in my own righteousness...I stand before him in Christ's righteousness.

If a struggling homosexual Christian who was contemplating suicide were to read this....will they find hope or condemnation?

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Getting away from the homos,

Are you trying to suggest that you have no sin?

Are you saying that now that you have the Holy Ghost, you don't sin any more? Never?


11 Chronicles 7:14 implies that God's people have evil ways. However, they are still God's people. Applying that scripture's context to a saved Gentile, it would not take away from the power of Christ to have a Christian still sin.

If it was impossible for a Christian to sin, then we would not need an Advocate. God gave us One though, right?


If I sin against my brother, am I still committing a sin against God?
If yes, what's the Biblical response for the offended brother?
What then, can we infer would be God's response?


So for every Christian who has ever been addicted to, oh say, pornography-- while they were addicted, were they not saved? If so, when did they lose their salvation? When did they get saved again? Were they ever saved in the first place?

Or is it now that they have fallen, God simply throws them away because they are not fit for the Kingdom of Heaven?


If God's Grace is strong enough to save a sinner, why would it not be strong enough to keep a Christian in the throws of an addiction?

This is why we're saved by Grace and not by works.

Our righteousness is as filthy rags, even on our best days. But we are not to continue in sin as if nothing is wrong, so "grace may abound."

Sin will always be sin, wrong is wrong and there is no forgiveness for any sin except through Jesus Christ.

But to say that a Holy Ghost filled person who falls into a sinful pattern or addiction is now no longer saved is not Biblical.


By the way, the discussion has already evolved from it's original topic!

However, all of this is connected.

I'm not trying to suggest anything other than the simplicity of God's salvation.

Are you trying to deny what Christ said?

Are you suggesting that one can have sin and still make it to heaven?

Are you suggesting that one can remain in homosexuality because he/she is saved anyway?

You see, your rhetorical questions can go both ways.

Besides that, we sin when we are drawn away by our own lusts, read James 1:12-15. Not only that, the Lord will give us a way to escape temptations.

So, you tell me, is it possible to live above sin?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

I'm not trying to suggest anything other than the simplicity of God's salvation.

Are you trying to deny what Christ said?

Are you suggesting that one can have sin and still make it to heaven?

Are you suggesting that one can remain in homosexuality because he/she is saved anyway?

You see, your rhetorical questions can go both ways.

Besides that, we sin when we are drawn away by our own lusts, read James 1:12-15. Not only that, the Lord will give us a way to escape temptations.

So, you tell me, is it possible to live above sin?

In our own strength yes. Living above sin is a grace provided miraculously through the Holy Ghost. Many struggle until the supernatural touch on their lives. Here's the deal....one school teaches that it's a matter of will power that one overcomes sin...the other teaches that overcoming sin is the effect of a supernatural touch of God on one's heart. Until that delivering touch takes place...the believer may sincerely struggle day in and day out with sin. However, God will make a way to deliver his children. I knew a person who was saved and struggled with sin. They suffered a massive heart attack that should have killed them instantly, but they were stabilized. They lasted in intensive care for four days before finally passing. This allowed the person periods of consciousness wherein they were able to pray with family. That person passed on having confessed their sin and their heart was made right.

I'll go this far...I personally believe that if one thinks they are living above sin by will power...they're lost where they stand. However, the struggling soul that is delivered supernaturally is truly saved.

[Antipas]

Bro. Eastman, I ask this in all sincerity and humility; are you perfectly sinless?

Often it's important to understand the legality of Christ's atonement. Righteousness is something imputed, justification something decreed based on Christ's shed blood. One can be declared legally "sinless" in God's eyes predicated upon the blood (because of Christ's sinlessness)...but still struggle with a sin that was covered by said blood. All our sin: past, present, and future...was nailed to the cross in a single moment in time.

That's the most powerful thing about the blood. When God views the most vial of sinners through the blood, they are white as snow, having Christ's righteousness.

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

So then, are temptations bondage? How do you view the saying of Christ taken from John 8:36 " If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed". Jesus said this after he he also said "whosover commiteth sin is the servant of sin". Hyperbole or not, if Christ makes one free, he/she is free indeed. To be a servant of Christ makes you free of the bondage of sin period; although no one is free from temptations, we have the power to overcome those temptations through Christ because we are His servants. To be a servant of sin takes a certain commitment away from the power of Christ and it denies the strength of the cross. This is why I do not beleive that once a homo, always a homo.

Why should a conversation evolve, when the fundamentals of salvation is really elementary?

I believe that some homosexuals are immediately delivered from this sin and become heterosexual in nature, just as some are immediately delivered from alcohol or nicotine. But many many are not. I believe that some homosexuals will be saved, but will always have homosexual tendencies and feelings, rather than heterosexual urges. But if they are saved, they will learn to overcome these temptations and live a pure celebate lifestyle. Just as a person who is troubled with lust for the opposite sex has to lay down those feelings and submit them to the Lord, so must a homosexual if he wants to make heaven.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

I'm not trying to suggest anything other than the simplicity of God's salvation.

1) Are you trying to deny what Christ said?

2) Are you suggesting that one can have sin and still make it to heaven?

3) Are you suggesting that one can remain in homosexuality because he/she is saved anyway?

You see, your rhetorical questions can go both ways.

Besides that, we sin when we are drawn away by our own lusts, read James 1:12-15. Not only that, the Lord will give us a way to escape temptations.

So, you tell me, is it possible to live above sin?

1) I'm not denying what Our God and Savior said about being made free. But maybe that being made free does not happen right away. Sometimes, the children of God become ensnared in a sin that only God can deliver them from-- a sin that God is willing to deliver him from.

Whatever our interpretation of the scriptures are, it can not contradict other clear scriptures. If I'm to forgive my brother 70 x 7 times per day then surely the God of mercies has enough Mercy to carry the struggling Christian through their time of struggle.



2) As for one having sin, there is not a good Biblical response I can think of for that question. However, we are not ignorant to the past of one of the greatest Apostolic organizations. Many of those saved, Holy Ghost filled folks had some serious issues that UPCI as an organization is striving to overcome.

But in the past, many of those folks did not even know they had an issue.

Are they in hell? I'd say NO WAY!!!!

With what you are implying, one would have to be perfectly sinless at the point of death or they would not be saved.

However, the only way we are sinless (justified) is through our faith in Jesus Christ. He works the change, the gradual sanctification of His folks.

But we are not more saved today than we were the day that God saved us.



3) I am not saying anyone can remain in any sin because they are saved any way. You are not recognizing the difference between the Christian who is not "at home" in his sin, whatever the sin maybe, and the sinner that rejects the knowledge of Christ.

The difference between the two of them is a matter of the heart. One loves Jesus and the other hates Jesus.


Legalism has a way of destroying the concept of Grace in the minds of many Christians unaware. We are well intentioned, but we forget a key fact.

Our righteousness with GOD is through the blood of JESUS ONLY!

There is FREEDOM in that knowledge and we are clearly instructed to NOT use our liberty as an occasion for the flesh. But when we sin, we have an ADVOCATE!

JESUS CHRIST is our RIGHTEOUSNESS, not us.

By the blood of Jesus, we are already above the eternal consequences (hell, lake of fire) of our sins, past, present and future, as long as we continue to run the Christian race set before us with patience, as described by St. Paul.


If there is ANYTHING unbiblical about my response, please correct me. "Iron sharpens iron."

[jezebelslayer]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I think that many who struggle with homosexuality need a supernatural change that's often beyond their own control. I don't rule out some genetic connections to the predisposition. God can deliver anyone, but sadly, he doesn't. Many homosexual Christians have struggled to the point of absolute despair and have committed suicide thinking that there was no hope for them. Obviously if someone struggles to the point of wanting to kill themselves, there's something VERY intense about this condition that is beyond one's conscious control.

Think about this....

If a Christian who was struggling with homosexuality and just couldn't make themselves feel attracted to the opposite gender were to read this thread what would be the impression of their hope?

Our God forgives sin. He also secures those who are truly broken hearted and mourn over their sinful inclinations. Our God is full of grace and ever merciful to those who turn to Him through the blood. I'm not perfect...I have sin that I too struggle with. Yet God keeps me and loves me through his grace. I do not stand before him in my own righteousness...I stand before him in Christ's righteousness.

If a struggling homosexual Christian who was contemplating suicide were to read this....will they find hope or condemnation?

What a compassionate post. I agree with you!

[StMark]

We've had some die of AIDS in our church.

The first case was a young guy (about 29). It was very sad because it was in the mid 80s when everyone thought you could get it from being around the person. He died very angry and bitter.

The next was a 20 yr old. His parents were so ashamed they moved up to some remote town in Montana or Idaho and were never heard from again.

Another man has had it for several years but is getting much sicker. I haven't seen him in church in several months. This one is married! He's what you would call a "Down Low Brother".

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I think that many who struggle with homosexuality need a supernatural change that's often beyond their own control. I don't rule out some genetic connections to the predisposition. God can deliver anyone, but sadly, he doesn't. Many homosexual Christians have struggled to the point of absolute despair and have committed suicide thinking that there was no hope for them. Obviously if someone struggles to the point of wanting to kill themselves, there's something VERY intense about this condition that is beyond one's conscious control.

Think about this....

If a Christian who was struggling with homosexuality and just couldn't make themselves feel attracted to the opposite gender were to read this thread what would be the impression of their hope?

Our God forgives sin. He also secures those who are truly broken hearted and mourn over their sinful inclinations. Our God is full of grace and ever merciful to those who turn to Him through the blood. I'm not perfect...I have sin that I too struggle with. Yet God keeps me and loves me through his grace. I do not stand before him in my own righteousness...I stand before him in Christ's righteousness.

If a struggling homosexual Christian who was contemplating suicide were to read this....will they find hope or condemnation?

Amen! Well said. I agree.