Grace Verse Legalism

[Glenda B]

Amen Brother Epley

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by mfblume

When God told Paul that His grace was sufficient for Paul, rather than see Paul delivered from the thorn in his flesh, grace referred to empowerment from God. Most usually think of unmerited favor, but that is sometimes incomplete. God continued to tell Paul that His strength is made perfect in weakness. So, grace is associated with divine empowerment. And when people miss this, they can fall prey to legalism. Legalism says you must do it in your human, will power alone. Make yourself serve God. make yourself obey rules. We need God's empowerment to live up to what He expects us to do.

When people are left with the impression that they must do this and not do that, then legalism is in the air. We need to leave people with the impression that without God's empowerment, we cannot do anything for Him.

What impression do churches leave people with?

Originally Posted by mfblume

Right. And this is when preachers actually replace God in the lives of the saints. Preachers are meant to teach the people how to hear from and be led by God -- not be led all the time by those preachers!

This is good stuff! I will get my word down again in the morning and make some Biblical comments. I love discussing these things Biblically based; using texts that are in context!

Thank you for your posts.

Blessings, Rhoni

[HADDOCK]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Leadership should empower their congregation to pray and seek God, go to the word, and make their own decisions. Just because some people are followers does not give leadership license to make decisions for them. Strive for spiritual maturity. You need to grow the children up not keep them in the crib.

Well put. If folks are handed a list of do's and don'ts that affect all the areas of their lives, where does a personal relationship with God come in where they seek wisdom, pray about conviction, search for direction?

[cliff d]

Three levels of standards:
1) Bible standards--- ones that are explicit such as do not commit adultery,and do not steal. these are directly commanded in scripture and are not subject to change.

2) Church standards---- those established by the pastor to cover principles taught in scripture. The Bible clearly gives spiritual leadership the authority to establish reasonable
guidelines for the protection of the Christian ( Hebrews 13:17 ). These cover areas where the Bible gives a certain principle,but it must be interpreted for our day. Such is the standard that deals with abstaining from smoking because the scripture gives the principle of not defiling your body because it is the temple of God (I Corinthians 3:16-17).
This seems to be clear and reasonable.
Some Biblical precepts however,create controversy because they are so general in nature and are open to many different interpretations. Such is the case for the principle of be ye separate and touch not the unclean thing (II Corinthians 6:17). One man may define being separate in vastly more narrow and parochial terms than another. For this reason each pastor should have the right to establish church standards for his own church. He knows the geographical and cultural factors better than some universal governing body.

3) Personal standards---- standards that are in the realm of the personal convictions of the individual Christian. This covers areas where the church has no ruling and the bible
is unclear or silent.

And brother Epley I do believe the church does have a right to establish standards of conduct when necessary but should refuse to make rules for every aspect of daily living and should leave areas not supported explicitly by scripture to the person when possible.
Even some church adornment standards may be necessary to avoid extremism. But other personal adornment standards may have value only as personal convictions and for
Christian maturity but should not be preached as essential to salvation.

In the final analysis, each christian is responsible to God to work out his/her own salvation with fear and to maintain holiness in his/her life.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by cliff d

Three levels of standards:
1) Bible standards--- ones that are explicit such as do not commit adultery,and do not steal. these are directly commanded in scripture and are not subject to change.

2) Church standards---- those established by the pastor to cover principles taught in scripture. The Bible clearly gives spiritual leadership the authority to establish reasonable
guidelines for the protection of the Christian ( Hebrews 13:17 ). These cover areas where the Bible gives a certain principle,but it must be interpreted for our day. Such is the standard that deals with abstaining from smoking because the scripture gives the principle of not defiling your body because it is the temple of God (I Corinthians 3:16-17).
This seems to be clear and reasonable.
Some Biblical precepts however,create controversy because they are so general in nature and are open to many different interpretations. Such is the case for the principle of be ye separate and touch not the unclean thing (II Corinthians 6:17). One man may define being separate in vastly more narrow and parochial terms than another. For this reason each pastor should have the right to establish church standards for his own church. He knows the geographical and cultural factors better than some universal governing body.

3) Personal standards---- standards that are in the realm of the personal convictions of the individual Christian. This covers areas where the church has no ruling and the bible
is unclear or silent.

And brother Epley I do believe the church does have a right to establish standards of conduct when necessary but should refuse to make rules for every aspect of daily living and should leave areas not supported explicitly by scripture to the person when possible.
Even some church adornment standards may be necessary to avoid extremism. But other personal adornment standards may have value only as personal convictions and for
Christian maturity but should not be preached as essential to salvation.

In the final analysis, each christian is responsible to God to work out his/her own salvation with fear and to maintain holiness in his/her life.

Excellent post.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by HADDOCK

Well put. If folks are handed a list of do's and don'ts that affect all the areas of their lives, where does a personal relationship with God come in where they seek wisdom, pray about conviction, search for direction?

AMEN. You have to exercise those prayer bones and decision making processes seeking God's direction for your life. The more you do it, the more proficient you are, and the less you find it necessary to seek help or advice from others.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

AMEN. You have to exercise those prayer bones and decision making processes seeking God's direction for your life. The more you do it, the more proficient you are, and the less you find it necessary to seek help or advice from others.

One always needs accountability in their life tho.

*When Samuel was addressed by God directly, he still went to Eli to verify what he thought God said.

*Even after David was anointed King, he submitted himself to Saul who was King at the time.

*And, when Moses saw a burning bush and heard God speaking, he went back home and asked his father-in-law what he should do.

I agree that we all need to hear from God, but we need someone in our lives who can help us confirm what we're feeling in the Spirit.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

One always needs accountability in their life tho.

*When Samuel was addressed by God directly, he still went to Eli to verify what he thought God said.

*Even after David was anointed King, he submitted himself to Saul who was King at the time.

*And, when Moses saw a burning bush and heard God speaking, he went back home and asked his father-in-law what he should do.

I agree that we all need to hear from God, but we need someone in our lives who can help us confirm what we're feeling in the Spirit.

Yes, I have good friends that I trust. I am blessed.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

One always needs accountability in their life tho.

*When Samuel was addressed by God directly, he still went to Eli to verify what he thought God said.

*Even after David was anointed King, he submitted himself to Saul who was King at the time.

*And, when Moses saw a burning bush and heard God speaking, he went back home and asked his father-in-law what he should do.

I agree that we all need to hear from God, but we need someone in our lives who can help us confirm what we're feeling in the Spirit.

Amen,

I have men I can trust for that purpose!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

One always needs accountability in their life tho.

*When Samuel was addressed by God directly, he still went to Eli to verify what he thought God said.

*Even after David was anointed King, he submitted himself to Saul who was King at the time.

*And, when Moses saw a burning bush and heard God speaking, he went back home and asked his father-in-law what he should do.

I agree that we all need to hear from God, but we need someone in our lives who can help us confirm what we're feeling in the Spirit.

Good post, Michael!!!