Tithe-vs-Paying Your Bills

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

1 Corinthians 9
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

From this scripture, I see Paul applying the principle of tithing in the old testament to the new testament. However, Paul himself states emphatically that although he has the power to live off the corinthians (For the Lord ordained it), he refused to use the privilege given him.

What do y'all think (especially of Verses 13 and 14) ?

What I think... is that this is the middle of a very long discourse which Paul began in the 8th chapter of Corinthians and the point he is making is that he takes nothing of the people, even though he could, because he doesn't want to be a stumbling block to anyone.

Below you will find the discourse beginning in the eight chapter. Paul is talking about exercising ones freedom in the face of what might harm a brother. We are free to do some things but if those things harm a brother then we don't exercise those freedoms at the cost of harming a brother.

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1 Corinthians 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1 Corinthians 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
1 Corinthians 8:7 Howbeit [there is] not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat [it] as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1 Corinthians 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1 Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1 Corinthians 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1 Corinthians 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1 Corinthians 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1 Corinthians 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
1 Corinthians 9:2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
1 Corinthians 9:3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
1 Corinthians 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
1 Corinthians 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
1 Corinthians 9:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
1 Corinthians 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

The discourse continues below but I will address some of the things you mention stating that you feel that this continues the law of the tithe.

1 Corinthians 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
1 Corinthians 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1 Corinthians 9:10 Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Okay... the verse he is recalling is OT Law and it states that when an ox is treading the corn you're not supposed to muzzle the ox. You should allow him to eat the corn he is working. It is only natural and fair to do so. This is not the law of the tithe. This is an OT law... but the tithe was given in another place and this pertains to the treatment of work animals.

1 Corinthians 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
1 Corinthians 9:12 If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ

.

Again... above we find where he is saying that the apostles travel from place to place starting churches and edifying those works. It seems only natural that, having spent his time and money to start and then continue to nurture these works he should benefit from the work of his own hand. But the point being made is that, even though this is only fair he does not do so "lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ".

1 Corinthians 9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
1 Corinthians 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
1 Corinthians 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for [it were] better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

In these verses he is not putting into play or recalling the law of the tithe. He is simply giving another example that makes his point. It is not an unfair assumption that one who travels & preaches the gospel should be able to live of that work but, once again, he states that he doesn't do this. He said it would be better for him to die than that any more should make his glorying void.

1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.
1 Corinthians 9:18 What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

And I have included these closing verses showing that he is still talking about the point he starting in chapter 8. We have freedom and power to do many things and yet we are servants one to another and should live our lives in a manner that reflects that.

So... first... the point being made in these scriptures is not that one who preaches the gospel should live of the gospel. The point being made is that he lives what he preaches to the point that, even though he would be doing no wrong to live of the works that he has planted and continues to nurture, he does not do this because we don't flaunt our freedoms in the face of those who are weaker.

Now... am I saying that Paul is saying that EVERYONE who travels and preaches the gospel should do as he did. Of course not. He isn't making that point either. He is just stating that this is what HE does.

The NT mentions of living of the gospel appear, to me, to be in reference to those who travel from place to place carrying this gospel to new places and going from place to place nurturing and mentoring various new and established works.

But nothing in this discourse, by any stretch of the imagination, makes an attempt to place the law of the tithe on the NT church.

I think Paul would be very disappointed to find that a discourse given to show that, while he has every right to do so, he does not live of the gospel for fear it would hinder the love and work of his life (the gospel) was used in our day to state that everyone should feel compelled by law and at the cost of their salvation to give 10% of the compensation they receive for their time and labor (which the tithe was never pertaining to) so that a man who does not travel from country to country could make a living of it.

[TGBTG]

D4T,

I understand Paul did not use his liberty to live off the corinthians.

If I may ask, what did the Lord ordain in this verse?

1 Corinthians 9:14
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

D4T,

I understand Paul did not use his liberty to live off the corinthians.

If I may ask, what did the Lord ordain in this verse?

1 Corinthians 9:14
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

That those who travel around preaching the gospel, beginning new works and nurturing those works would not be doing wrong if they were able to do so without having to have other jobs as well by receiving support from those works he had started and continues to nurture.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I KNOW that if you are faithful in paying your tithes, you will never go hungry or have need of money to pay your bills.
...
.

You may KNOW that based on your limited experience but others of us may have seen or experienced something different.

[Aquila]

I believe that a church and that the ministry should be funded. However, I don't believe that this requires an automatic 10% membership fee to be saved. There is a 3,000 member church in Dayton Ohio that doesn't collect "tithes" but rather functions off of free will offerings and pledges. They have a very large campus and a very large network of community churches.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

You may KNOW that based on your limited experience but others of us may have seen or experienced something different.

I've never met ONE person who did not testify the same thing. I'm not speaking just of myself here. When you tithe, GOD sees you through. Try it.

[faithit166]

AMEN

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that a church and that the ministry should be funded. However, I don't believe that this requires an automatic 10% membership fee to be saved. There is a 3,000 member church in Dayton Ohio that doesn't collect "tithes" but rather functions off of free will offerings and pledges. They have a very large campus and a very large network of community churches.

Are you being sarcastic about a church that requires tithing to be saved, or are there really churches like that?

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I've never met ONE person who did not testify the same thing. I'm not speaking just of myself here. When you tithe, GOD sees you through. Try it.

I was given a car. A $14,000 car (tax, title, warranty etc). My pastor at the time said I should pay $1400 tithes on that. So I quickly and happily went out and borrowed $1400 to pay the tithe.

I began an immediate spiral into financial ruin that, over 10 years later, we are just now recovering from.

Now you've met one. But nobody tells those stories.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Are you being sarcastic about a church that requires tithing to be saved, or are there really churches like that?

There are many churches that teach if you don't tithe you're robbing God. The word there indicates doing violence to one and taking what they have. Can a man actively and repeatedly do violence to God, take what is his, and still be saved???

Their theology corners non-tithers into the "backslidden" catagory automatically.