Was Matt.28:19 Tampered With ?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sam

We don't have any instance in our KJV New Testament where it quotes the words that were spoken during the water baptism ritual.

Maybe you could add something to the margin of your Bible and we'll see if it "takes" after a few hundred years.

[Sam]

I'm not a textual criticism scholar.

I accept our Bible as it is based on the textus receptus.

I don't have a problem with Matthew 28:19 nor with Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; and 19:5.

I know some of us see their relationship differently.
1. Some believe "Jesus" with or without additional titles such as "Lord" and/or "Christ" to be the (single) name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost share a common name and that name is "Jesus."

2. Some believe that the name of the Father is Lord; the name of the Son is Jesus; the name of the Holy Ghost is Christ, and therefore the Triune God has a Triune Name which is "Lord Jesus Christ."

3. Some believe that Matthew 28:19 was the command given to baptizers who were authorized by Jesus to baptize. When these baptizers baptized they did so as authorized by (in the name/authority of) Jesus and spoke the words, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" that He had authorized.

4. Some use a combination of the words found in Matthew 28:19 and the verses in the Book of Acts in their baptismal "formula."

I don't have a problem with any of the above although I do not personally agree with all of them. I can accept someone as a brother or sister who believes in any of those 4 methods and practices baptism that way.

I would have no problem saying, "In Matthew 28:19 Jesus told us to baptize in His name" nor would I have a problem with saying, "In Acts 2:38, Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Over the years I have not baptized many people. When I did I said, "I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ." in so doing I believe I was complying with Matthew 28:19.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sam

I'm not a textual criticism scholar.

I accept our Bible as it is based on the textus receptus.

I don't have a problem with Matthew 28:19 nor with Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; and 19:5.

I know some of us see their relationship differently.
1. Some believe "Jesus" with or without additional titles such as "Lord" and/or "Christ" to be the (single) name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost share a common name and that name is "Jesus."

2. Some believe that the name of the Father is Lord; the name of the Son is Jesus; the name of the Holy Ghost is Christ, and therefore the Triune God has a Triune Name which is "Lord Jesus Christ."

3. Some believe that Matthew 28:19 was the command given to baptizers who were authorized by Jesus to baptize. When these baptizers baptized they did so as authorized by (in the name/authority of) Jesus and spoke the words, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" that He had authorized.

4. Some use a combination of the words found in Matthew 28:19 and the verses in the Book of Acts in their baptismal "formula."

I don't have a problem with any of the above although I do not personally agree with all of them. I can accept someone as a brother or sister who believes in any of those 4 methods and practices baptism that way.

I would have no problem saying, "In Matthew 28:19 Jesus told us to baptize in His name" nor would I have a problem with saying, "In Acts 2:38, Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Over the years I have not baptized many people. When I did I said, "I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ." in so doing I believe I was complying with Matthew 28:19.

Our bible is not based on the TR....SOME bibles are based on the TR.

As for Mat 28:19 it doesn't matter what Textual Variants are used...it's the same in all from what I understand

[TheLayman]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

Matthew 28:19 was most certainly altered post-Nicea. Eusebius quoted it quite differently and he was at the counsel of Nicea.

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/evr-last-gosp.htm

he following seven citations of Matthew 28:19 are shown below in the quotations from the Proof of the Gospel (the Demonstratio) by Eusebius. The intent of this excerpt is not to purport accuracy of theology or philosophy of this man, but to glean from his access to the text of Matthew 28:19 in his day and time. For these citations, Eusebius (265 A.D. -- 339 A.D.) as proclaimed Bishop of Caesarea had access to the famed Library of Caesarea and thus references Matthew 28:19 from more ancient manuscripts housed therein than are available to us today.

(1) Book III, Chapter 7, 136 (a-d), p. 157

Whereas He, who conceived nothing human or mortal, see how truly He speaks with the voice of God, saying in these very words to those disciples of His, the poorest of the poor: "Go forth, and make disciples of all the nations." "But how," the disciples might reasonably have answered the Master, "can we do it: How, pray, can we preach to Romans: How can we argue with the Egyptians? We are men bred up to use the Syrian tongue only, what language shall we speak to Greeks: How shall we persuade Persians, Armenians, Chaldaeans, Scythians, Indians, and other barbarous nations to give up their ancestral gods, and worship the Creator of all? What sufficiency of speech have we to trust to in attempting such work as this? And what hope of success can we have if we dare to proclaim laws directly opposed to the laws about their own gods that have been established for ages among all nations? By what power shall we ever survive our daring attempt?"

But while the disciples of Jesus were most likely either saying thus, or thinking thus, the Master solved their difficulties, by the addition of one phrase, saying they should triumph "In MY NAME." And the power of His name being so great, that the apostle says: "God has given him a name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth," He shewed the virtue of the power in His Name concealed from the crowd when He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all the nations in my Name." He also most accurately forecasts the future when He says: "for this gospel must first be preached to all the world, for a witness to all nations."

(2) Book III, Chapter 6, 132 (a), p. 152

With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you," …

(3) Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159

But when I turn my eyes away to the evidence of the power of the Word, what multitudes it has won, and what enormous churches have been founded by those unlettered and mean disciples of Jesus, not in obscure and unknown places, but in the most noble cities—I mean in Royal Rome, in Alexandria, and Antioch, through the whole of Egypt and Libya, Europe and Asia, and in villages and country places and among the nations--I am irresistibly forced to retrace my steps, and search for their cause, and to confess that they could only have succeeded in their daring venture, by a power more divine, and more strong than man’s and by the co-operation of Him Who said to them; "Make disciples of all the nations in my Name."

(4) Book IX, Chapter 11, 445 (c), p. 175

And He bids His own disciples after their rejection, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."

(5) Book I, Chapter 3, 6 (a), p. 20

Hence of course, our Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Son of God, said to His disciples after His Resurrection: "Go and make disciples of all the nations," and added "Teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you." (1)

Note 1 in W. J. Ferrar’s edition: Matthew 28:19. The verse is quoted thus seven times in the Demonstratio with the omission of the reference to Baptism and the Trinity. Conybeare (Hibbert Journal, i. (1902-3) p. 102), who holds that the reference was interpolated for dogmatic reasons, and was not fully assured in the text till after the Council of Nicea, supports his view from the practice of Eusebius. This is the view of Kirsopp Lake, Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ii. 380 and Moffatt, The Historical New Test. 1901, p. 647. The historicity of the words as ipsissima verba is denied by Harnack, Clemen, and J. A. Robinson, Encyclopedia Biblica, art. "Baptism" From the Acts taken literally it would be gathered that apostolic Baptism was simply in the Name of Jesus. – (Acts 8:12-16; Acts 9:18; Acts 22:16)

(6) Book I, Chapter 5, 9 (a), p. 24

"Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you." What could He mean but the teaching and discipline of the new covenant?

(7) Book I, Chapter 6, 24 (c), p. 42

"Go ye into all the world, and make disciples of all the nations … teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you."

Bibliography: Eusebius (265-339) Bishop of Caesarea around 314 was referred to as the son of Pamphilus. He wrote many books, the best known of which is the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius. Other writings were the Praeparatio, the Demonstratio from which we have The Proof of the Gospel, Quaestiones ad Stephanum, and the Epitome. According to the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, "His time considered him its most learned man."

The above seven referenced quotations of Matthew 28:19 according to Eusebius reflects the verse as he read it from the text in the library in Caesarea. The problem with most translations including the King James Version, as it relates to the text of Matthew 28:19, is that they reflect an erroneous addition of wording of Catholic origin and not the correct words spoken by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As the verse and the doctrine of the Trinity were being discussed in his day, and having access to the original, Eusebius denounced the reading of Matthew 28:19 with the Trinitarian phrase as the most serious of all the falsifications.

It is time for modern-day Christianity to get back to the actual words of our Lord Jesus and quote the words as they were actually written in the "Everlasting Gospel" of Matthew as:

"Go ye into all the world and make disciples of all the nations in my name" (Matthew 28:19).

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall first be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). Could the correct rendition of Matthew’s Gospel play a part in the distribution of the Everlasting Gospel? (Revelation 14:6 -- "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people").

Much ado about nothing (BTW, I notice you didn't mention Eusebius citing the Biblical version, how come). But it is really irrelevant. Here's a sampling of ANF's quoting Matthew 28:19 from 15 to 85 years before Eusebius was even born!

And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them, Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Irenaeus c. 180)

“Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” By this He showed that whoever omits any of these three, fails in glorifying God perfectly. (Hippolytus, c. 205)

For the law of Baptism was enjoined and its ritual prescribed. "Go," he says, "teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit." (Tertullian, c. 200)

He commands them to baptize into the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—not into a unipersonal God. (Tertullian, c. 213)

“Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” He suggests the Trinity, in whose sacrament the nations were to be baptized. (Cyprian, c 250)

There are more but that should certainly suffice. They weren't quoting something that didn't exist. But I do believe you should throw your Bible away, there's just no way of telling what has been tampered with, LOL.

TheLayman

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Our bible is not based on the TR....SOME bibles are based on the TR.

You didn't pitch your KJV did you Bro?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

As for Mat 28:19 it doesn't matter what Textual Variants are used...it's the same in all from what I understand

There are no manuscripts without it; however there are several citations of Matthew 28, in the writings of the ancients that has led many to surmise that it may have been missing from those earlier times.

For me, it's just not certain; so I think it's wisest to take the full body of Scripture on the matter of baptism into account.

Besides, it's the faith of the believer in the works of Jesus Christ that brings about salvation.

[Revelationist]

I read a book by Dr. Marvin Arnold on the subject. He says that the original text for 28:19 just says "Go!"

[Praxeas]

Anyone wonder why the PPH does not sell Dr Arnold's books?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Revelationist

I read a book by Dr. Marvin Arnold on the subject. He says that the original text for 28:19 just says "Go!"

That's clever. Good one, Moonie.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Anyone wonder why the PPH does not sell Dr Arnold's books?

DKB was the WAP editor for years?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Revelationist

I read a book by Dr. Marvin Arnold on the subject. He says that the original text for 28:19 just says "Go!"

Marvin Arnold cited as an authoritative source?