Be Ye Perfect

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Our standing is based on our Faith IN Christ and what He has done. If that is the case then if we do not continue in faith, as the bible commands, then perhaps our standing does change.

Being carnal however is not a lack of faith, it's simply not walking in the Spirit. My point was that being carnal doesn't change one's standing, but their state. It's the state of being carnal.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Being carnal however is not a lack of faith, it's simply not walking in the Spirit. My point was that being carnal doesn't change one's standing, but their state. It's the state of being carnal.

Being carnal is synonomous with walking in the flesh. What happens to those who walk in the flesh?

1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom. 8:1

They are condemned. It is those who walk in THE SPIRIT who have no condemnation.

What is the END of those who walk in the flesh?

13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom. 8:13

Those who walk in the flesh will die. They will not inherit eternal life.

[mizpeh]

Michael,

In principle I agree with you, but the Bible does allow that some brethren will be weak and some strong. We should strive for perfection, but and if we fail, we have an advocate, Jesus Christ the righteous. A victorious life in Christ over sin is what we all want. We all want to walk in the Spirit and let the Spirit help us mortify the deeds of the flesh, but.....it's a learning, growing process.

Have patience, God hasn't finished the good work He started in us.

[Michael The Disciple]

Adino

I think you've incorrectly interpreted Romans 3:25 and you should read further. I think it's clear when reading verse 26 along with verse 25 that two very distinct time frames are being mentioned by Paul: First, he speaks of Christ's righteousness declared for sins "that are past" referring to OT believers. He then says Christs righteousness is also declared "at this time" so that Christ "might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth." Paul is simply saying Christ's righteousness is declared for all sin prior to and after the cross.

I read it again and it still reads the same. There is no distinction there concerning the Old and New Testament. He is writing to the Roman Christians explaining there sins are forgiven when they believe in Yeshua. And that he is held up to us as the one who justifies THROUGH FAITH.

There is no blank check for forgiveness of unrepented of sins in the context.

If, as you seem to be saying, Christ's righteousness is only declared for past sins, there needs to be another sacrifice for the future sins (of which ALL our sins were yet future) because without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Christ died once for all. You seem to be advocating that there were some sins not reckoned to Christ when he went to the cross. I think your line of thinking here is flawed. Either our sins were reckoned to Christ or they were not. If they were, then they are ALL dealt with and not held against us because they have been removed in Christ. If they were not reckoned to Christ, then there needs to be another sacrifice for them.

You say that all unrepented sin will be charged to us. Scripture please. Are you aware you sin every time you mention a day of the week by perpetuating the names of false deities? Are you aware every time you doubt or fear you sin because it is not of faith? Are you aware of your sins of omission? How do you know you have assurance of salvation? Just how much right doing is enough for salvation? You really must cease from dead works and rest in Christ, friend.

Again I do not advocate what you are saying. It works like this as I said before.

1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1

So Christians past sins were cleansed when they were born again. Any future sins must be repented of (by faith) to appropriate the cleansing blood. Thats why it says we HAVE not HAD an advocate with the Father.

If we sin NOW we are required to repent.

20: For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
21: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. 2 Cor. 12:20-21

So some of the Corinthians were still sinning. Paul bewailed the fact they had NOT REPENTED. If there sins were automatically forgiven by being reckoned to Messiah why would THEY need to repent?

So if I commit sin every day as you propose I do does that mean I should try to change the word of Yeshua? And if I do does that justify anyone else for their sins?

Show me please where it says Ananias and Saphira lost their salvation. There was good reason for the sovereign God to take their lives at this time. 1) It reinforced Peter's authority over the Church and 2) It underlined Christ's eschatalogical teachings concerning Jerusalem (one of the reasons men felt free to sell their properties is because Christ mentioned the fall of temple. It is possible A & S doubted Christ's eschatological teachings). Bottom line - please show us all where it is said they were going to hell. While their actions ended with certain immediate consequence, there is no indication their eternal souls were damned.I've yet to see this contradiction.

How in the world did the judgment Annanias and Saphira reinforce the prophecy of the fall of Jerusalem? No they were not killed for doubting the doctrine of the second coming. Peter tells us EXACTLY why YHWH killed them.

3: But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4: Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Acts 5:3-4

They were slain because they LIED TO THE HOLY GHOST.

Why do I believe they lost their salvation if indeed they were saved?

8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev. 21:8

If YHWH says liars will be in Hell then these will be there. He even gave Saphira a chance to repent and she would not.

Concerning Sardis:

Christ said their reputation was that they were alive while, in reality, they were dead. Their works deceived others into thinking they were alive yet something was wrong in their spirit which caused Christ to label them "dead." The bible speaks of but one sin unto death, and I believe it to be the sin of unbelief. I suggest we recognize that the author of Revelation has already dealt in his previous epistles with the heresy of gnosticism which at its core denied the bodily existence and/or resurrection of Christ and that it is very possible he is addressing some of the same concerns here. It is very possible the faith of some in Sardis is being called into question.

The issue of their confession of faith would also be supported by the later reference in Rev 3:5 of the overcomer having his name confessed before the Father and the angels. Luke 12:8 tells us who Christ will confess before the angels. It is those who have a true confession of Christ (....Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God). Also, their "garments" were said to be defiled. Isaiah 61:10 speaks of garments of salvation and a robe of righteousness. What would defile these garments more than a heretical view of Christ? If righteousness is via faith in Christ and their faith is now questionable then their garments would be considered as defiled.

You mention the blessedness of those who "do his commandments." I would simply point out that 1John 3:23-24 outright mentions what these commandments are:

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.......

Here you seem to imply the Sardis believers were not really believers. This is easily proven false.

1: And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2: Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3: Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:1-5

Would Yeshua have expected that SINNERS works should be perfect? Verse2.

Would he tell SINNERS to strengthen those things which REMAIN? What THINGS do those outside Christ have? Verse 2

What would he be telling those outside the body of Christ to HOLD FAST? VERSE 3.

You spoke truly when you said his commandment was to believe in him and love one another. Yet his Spirit also mentions OTHER commandments
which if are not followed shuts the Gates of the Kingdom against the transgressors:

19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal. 5:19-21

Hope this helps.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Michael,

In principle I agree with you, but the Bible does allow that some brethren will be weak and some strong. We should strive for perfection, but and if we fail, we have an advocate, Jesus Christ the righteous. A victorious life in Christ over sin is what we all want. We all want to walk in the Spirit and let the Spirit help us mortify the deeds of the flesh, but.....it's a learning, growing process.

Have patience, God hasn't finished the good work He started in us.

Hi Mizpeh,

The scriptures ACKNOWLEDGE there are weak and strong believers. However it does not ALLOW for it. If by "weak believer" we mean one that cannot cease from sin.

I myself have quoted this scripture several times in this thread.

1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1

The strong are to help the weak that THEY ALSO MAY BE STRONG.

11: Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 1 Thess 5:11

To edify means to BUILD UP.

I understand the need for patience and forbearance. However the things I am teaching here are ALSO TRUE.

Corrupt teachings of today have blinded almost everyone to the fact we are to "be perfect EVEN AS our Father in Heaven is perfect".

Teachers of today are very grieved at hearing the truth that souls will be blotted out of the book of life if they are NOT OVERCOMERS. It blows the lid off the pot of lies that those who are walking in the flesh will enter Heaven.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Being carnal however is not a lack of faith, it's simply not walking in the Spirit. My point was that being carnal doesn't change one's standing, but their state. It's the state of being carnal.

I understood your point though. I was making an addition point about when the standing is also lost .

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Thanks. Seems I wasn't too far off, though. The "switch" isn't turned off until some time has passed without repenting. OK, got it.

Originally Posted by Timmy

Oh, and a related question: once the "switch" is turned off (having once been on), i.e. a saved person has lost his salvation, is it even possible to turn it back on? Do you believe OBAB? (Once Backslid, Always Backslid!)

Bump

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Bump

I think it depends on who you are. Where have you been in Christ?

4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb. 6:4-6

If one had experienced what is written in these verses it is impossible that they can be renewed again.

We know that at least generally speaking if we commit a sin we can repent. But I think this parable shows that Yeshua is sovereign over how much time he gives someone to bear fruit.

6: He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7: Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8: And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. Luke 13:6-9

The point should be all of us should be taught to give ourselves fully to obedience to Yeshua the Messiah. If one is backslid right now and DESIRES to come back let them come. There is no easy answer except teach the love and fear of God. Teach people to cease from sin and press into the kingdom of Light.

[Adino]

Michael wrote concerning Romans 3:25-26:

I read it again and it still reads the same. There is no distinction there concerning the Old and New Testament. He is writing to the Roman Christians explaining there sins are forgiven when they believe in Yeshua. And that he is held up to us as the one who justifies THROUGH FAITH.

I realize the interpretation I offered does not fit your template. Be that as it may, it is a valid understanding held by scholars today. I give as example, John Gill on Romans 3:25-26 from his "Exposition of the Entire Bible":

"for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God - by "sins that are past", are meant, not sins before baptism, nor the sins of a man's life only, but the sins of Old Testament saints, who lived before the incarnation of Christ, and the oblation of his sacrifice; and though this is not to be restrained to them only, for Christ's blood was shed for THE REMISSION OF ALL HIS PEOPLE'S SINS, past, present, and to come; yet the sins of the saints before the coming of Christ, seem to be particularly designed."

This passage does not seem to support your case.

How in the world did the judgment Annanias and Saphira reinforce the prophecy of the fall of Jerusalem? No they were not killed for doubting the doctrine of the second coming. Peter tells us EXACTLY why YHWH killed them.

How does this event underscore Christ's eschatalogical teachings? If your leader tells you there will not be one stone left upon another in reference to your most holy city, Jerusalem, and he also told you your generation would not pass until this and his other prophecies came to pass, you would have an extreme sense of eschatalogical urgency given the atmosphere this would have created among first century believers (Mark 13).

Those who owned properties in Jerusalem would understand the city was to shortly fall and would most probably take this into consideration when deciding their future affairs. Selling off property in a doomed city would be a wise financial move. Unless, of course, you did not believe the prophecies of Christ. Then maybe you would hold back some of your assets, just in case he was mistaken. You've got to drop the sunday school mentality and admit we simply cannot dismiss the influence of Christ's prophetical teachings on the Ananias and Saphira account.

The passage you offered in Rev 21:8 is in contradistinction of those who are overcomers in verse 7. The overcomer is the believer. 1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith (Also Romans 3:3-4, 1John 2:22). The "liars" are those who have rejected Christ. 1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? I have yet to see solid evidence of your position. I expect to see Ananias and Saphira walking the streets of gold. The A & S account simply does not seem to support your case.

Here you seem to imply the Sardis believers were not really believers. This is easily proven false.

I believe there is evidence to show that errant gnostic views of Christ had crept into the Sardis community. This is not to say they were ALL unbelievers. It is the truth of Christ which was to be strengthened in defense of heretical gnostic views John dealt with previously in his epistles. I gave you the Scriptural indications which would lead to this conclusion. The Sardis argument simply does not seem to support your case.

I will give you last word on these issues if you like. Let's move the discussion on to the question I will raise in my next post.

Prax, the following post should deal with your previously posted concern as well.

[Adino]

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

What is being said here? I would like your exegesis on these passages.

I read that the law foreshadowed something greater to come. I read that the sacrifices could not "continually make the comers thereunto perfect" "pertaining to the conscience." If they would have had the power to "continually" make men perfect then there would have only been a need for a single purging. The "worshippers once purged" would "have had no more conscience of sins" and there would have been no need for further purging.

But they did feel the need for further purging because they retained their conscience of sin. This tainted conscience demanded further sacrificial purging. Because their conscience of sins was not removed, those under the old covenant needed the yearly sacrifice of atonement. The sacrifices of the law DID NOT continually make them perfect. It did not keep them perpetually clean in the eyes of God because they perpetually retained a conscience of sin.

BUT now is the new covenant in which Christ has indeed superseded the shadow. His sacrifice DOES "continually make the comers thereunto perfect." His sacrifice HAS perfected forever those sanctified in him.

Heb 10:12-14 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.....For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Because his one sacrifice DOES continually make us "perfect" there is no need for any further sacrifice. Because his sacrifice makes us continually perfect before God we, once purged, should have no more conscience of sin. It is with this understanding we are to approach God.

Here is a huge difference between our two positions:

I believe we are to continually approach God in full assurance of faith with a good conscience, while you believe we are to repetitively approach God with a guilty conscience asking to get your conscience cleared. I believe you are approaching God in the wrong frame of mind and, in fact, possibly show that you do not have full assurance of faith in his finished work.

Believers are to approach God with a good conscience..... not in order to get a good conscience.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience.....

He does not perfect again and again those who keep coming back to him with their inadequacies. He has "perfected forever" those in him. Those purged ONCE are perfected forever and should have no more conscience of sin. As long as we rest in Christ, we are continually perfected in him. This brings us back to to my previous statements concerning the perpetual imputation of righteousness to the believer. We are not justified time and time again. We have been "perfected forever" and are in a condition of continued justification by faith.

Your thoughts,